Confessions of a Killer DM

During this fridays session I killed off 3 PCs, 2 familiars and the rangers animal companion...

Guess that makes me a killer DM too! ...or maybe I just have over-confident players? ;)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Jolly Giant said:
During this fridays session I killed off 3 PCs, 2 familiars and the rangers animal companion...

Guess that makes me a killer DM too! ...or maybe I just have over-confident players? ;)

Plenty of DMs have over-confident players; the sign of the Killer DM is that you kill the characters rather than letting them escape!

Well done! :)

Cheers!
 

MerricB said:
:)

It's interesting, because that solution is the opposite of how I develop my own characters. I prefer to start with about two lines of concept, and then, in the play of the game, develop them further.

I've had several characters that I've played for two or three years in such a manner with great histories of what happened before they became adventurers - but because I developed them in campaign rather than apart from the campaign, they were better integrated into the game.

I know that doesn't work for everyone, but I think the contrast is interesting.

Cheers!

Identified and codified as DIP/DAS on r.g.f.advocacy.
DIP: Develop In Play. The style you seem to favor, where most of the "character" of your character (and possibly their stats, too, depending on game system and group) are developed during the game, and a beginning character is pretty much a blank slate.
DAS: Develop At Start. The style the other person was advocating of creating a significant history and personality for the character before play begins.

The really important thing to get out of this is that both styles exist, and most people seem to lean heavily towards one or the other. And trying to a turn a DIP into a DAS, or vice versa, is much like teaching a pig to sing--all you do is annoy the pig. Just because someone can't/won't show up with a 2p (or 20p) character background doesn't mean that they aren't a good RPer, or will have a 2-dimensional character, or only "rollplay"--they might just be a DIP. And, conversely, though this is less often the case IME, someone can be heavily DAS, and still actually play their character like a static cardboard cutout, who never changes or evolves once the game begins.
 

HeavyG said:
Balancing the need for consequences for failure (you don't want your players to feel their PCs are invincible) with the need to keep characters alive in a harsh environment so you can keep telling their stories (you don't want your players to become afraid of heroics) is hard.

It's what the debate about easier or harder resurrection boils to, really.

I've found that if you want your PCs to brave meaningful dangers, you need to either :
- Keep them alive via DM fiat
- Allow for easy resurrection
or
- Accept that they'll be making new characters all the time and that you better not make the stories too personal

Let's face it, it's a dice-based game, no player is going to roll high all the time, so depending on your players to play smart is not going to let them survive to 20th level by itself. (This goes for most RPGs, I feel.)
Which is why we have option 4: keep them alive via player fiat. That's pretty much teh whole point behind ASP/hero points/luck points/etc. Give the players a powerful bit of script-override, but one they have to ration carefully. They need to be powerful enough that the player can save the character from Certain Doom (or just Evil Dice), at least some of the time, yet not so plentiful that they never need fear defeat.

Solution number 3 is unacceptable if you want to involve the player's characters in your story in a deep and meaningful (long term) way.

The problem with the first two solutions is that it makes the players cocky, if they know about them.

The only solution, I feel, is to give the PCs script immunity (possibly with agreed upon caveats), but to make penalties for failure very meaningful.

Another option is to simply give the players more authorial control, period. Things like Storypath Cards or the Torg Drama Deck are a great way to do this. So is making the players intermediaries between the randomizer and the character/world. Card-based games often do this, by letting the player draw and hold several cards, which they can then spend however they want. So they can choose when to fail (by spending the crappy cards) and when to succeed (by spending the awesome cards). They don't succeed or fail any more than a dice-randomized game (well, assuming equal range, variability, yada yada yada), but the overall effect is less random. You could do this with D&D pretty easily: have each player roll, say, 20d20 at the beginning of a combat. And then, each time they need a d20 roll, they use on of those. Once they're all gone, they roll another 20d20, and so on. The distribution should still be just as random/average over the long haul, but they can choose to, say, do poorly at first and save the good rolls to triumph in the end (or just guarantee running away). Heck, i suppose you could even forgo rolling altogether, and have each person tick off the results 1-20 from a checklist, in whatever order they want, and they can't start over again until they've used them all. Oh, and if you have a group that would abuse this, only GM-instigated rolls count. They can't just decide to go off into the forest and "hunt squirrels" to use up all their low rolls.

So what I do is, if the dice indicate that a PC dies, the blow will knock him unconscious instead, but the character will suffer a permanent disability instead. Like, say, losing an arm. Or maybe the pretty boy skirt-chaser swordsman will suffer a disfiguring scar (i.e. a fate worse than death :)).

Another possibility is delayed consequences: when the dice indicate that the PC should die, and it's "wrong" for the game, the PC gets a "black mark" instead. The PC survives (perhaps maimed, perhaps not, depending on the game), but that player now "owes" the GM a death. At some point in the near future (that session, that adventure, that story arc--whatever works for the group), that character *will* die, but the player can choose a suitably-dramatic situation to do it in. I'll leave it up to the group whether the player can choose a situation they'd be guaranteed to die in anyway, or if, for it to be a "proper" sacrifice, it has to be in a situation that, if the player gave 100%, they'd make it through.
 

woodelf said:
Identified and codified as DIP/DAS on r.g.f.advocacy.
DIP: Develop In Play. The style you seem to favor, where most of the "character" of your character (and possibly their stats, too, depending on game system and group) are developed during the game, and a beginning character is pretty much a blank slate.
DAS: Develop At Start. The style the other person was advocating of creating a significant history and personality for the character before play begins.

The really important thing to get out of this is that both styles exist, and most people seem to lean heavily towards one or the other. And trying to a turn a DIP into a DAS, or vice versa, is much like teaching a pig to sing--all you do is annoy the pig. Just because someone can't/won't show up with a 2p (or 20p) character background doesn't mean that they aren't a good RPer, or will have a 2-dimensional character, or only "rollplay"--they might just be a DIP. And, conversely, though this is less often the case IME, someone can be heavily DAS, and still actually play their character like a static cardboard cutout, who never changes or evolves once the game begins.

Indeed - some good points there. The other fellow who has been DMing me recently would be of the DAS variety, as was my first "real" DM a long time ago.

There's some interesting playing tendencies that develop from that as well - I've had one DAS player turn up with reams of information about his PC, and want me to read it all - obviously with a view to including it in the game.

However, I prefer to find out about that information in game and develop it from there...

Cheers!
 

As a DM I find I have to work hard to not kill PCs off (I even have a houserule that when you reach or pass -10hp you get to make a level check with a DC of your "total" -ve hit points to just stabilise at -10 and not actually die. Without that houserule the original horrifying number of party deaths would have never abated!).

Am I a killer DM? Are the PCs silly? Neither of these. It basically comes down to mechanics.

Firstly, 3e+ has higher scaling of damage than ever before. High level fights turn out huge amounts of damage and high level characters are just as likely to be killed in an 8 round battle as their 1st/2nd level incarnations.

This is mostly because of the design decision that damage and offense increases faster than defense.

Secondly, my players all come from 1e backgrounds - where high level characters *knew* they could hang in there for 10-15 rounds before things got hairy and they had to think of bailing out... there has been an underlying perception on the part of all of us that high level characters are tougher than low level characters. The problem is that with the scaling of challenges available now in D&D, this isn't true. Sure, compared with their lower level incarnations they are tougher, and a single unclassed orc or ogre isn't a big deal when they reach 10th level... but the barbed devil could kill them as quickly at 10th level as the orc could at 1st.

I think that these two factors contribute hugely to the ease with which PCs can get killed in 3e+ D&D (and personally I abhor the built in "counter" to this which is cheapy raise deads... too much like a video game for my liking).

Just my observations.

Cheers
 

I'm a DIP guy, although a couple of my players are DAS guys that isn't really a problem for me as they have realistic ideas of what is appropriate in their background. I've occasionally come across someone whose background for their 1st level character made them a weapon master, and they were annoyed that their actual 1st level character couldn't match up to the written description :D
 

ditto Plane Sailing's observations.

but also with the newer edition and its revision i've also encountered many more DMs unwilling to kill PCs.

adding Luck or Hero Points.
adding Story based Deus Ex Machina :\
adding raise dead, resurrection, true resurrection, time travel....for low level PCs.

these are DM problems...not system problems.
 
Last edited:

woodelf said:
Identified and codified as DIP/DAS on r.g.f.advocacy.
DIP: Develop In Play. The style you seem to favor, where most of the "character" of your character (and possibly their stats, too, depending on game system and group) are developed during the game, and a beginning character is pretty much a blank slate.
DAS: Develop At Start. The style the other person was advocating of creating a significant history and personality for the character before play begins.

Doing both can be a lot of fun, too. Develop quite a backstory at the start of play, and then let the game impact how the character develops from that point on. That's what happened with my main Living Greyhawk character, and the PC is nothing like I envisioned three years ago when I created him.

There's nothing wrong with building a character and planning out their future (I'm sort of trying that my newest character). For some prestige classes, you have to do that. I've just usually been in the DIP camp, but I've started to mix DIP with DAS. I find that's the best method (mixing both) for PBeM games (at least the ones I play(ed) in).
 

woodelf said:
Identified and codified as DIP/DAS on r.g.f.advocacy.
DIP: Develop In Play. The style you seem to favor, where most of the "character" of your character (and possibly their stats, too, depending on game system and group) are developed during the game, and a beginning character is pretty much a blank slate.
DAS: Develop At Start. The style the other person was advocating of creating a significant history and personality for the character before play begins.

The really important thing to get out of this is that both styles exist, and most people seem to lean heavily towards one or the other. And trying to a turn a DIP into a DAS, or vice versa, is much like teaching a pig to sing--all you do is annoy the pig.

You sir, have just made a little light go on in my head about what's going on in a long-term conflict between me and another player in my group. And for that, I thank you profusely! :)

-The Gneech
 

Remove ads

Top