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Confirm or Deny: D&D4e would be going strong had it not been titled D&D

Was the demise of 4e primarily caused by the attachment to the D&D brand?

  • Confirm (It was a solid game but the name and expectations brought it down)

    Votes: 87 57.6%
  • Deny (The fundamental game was flawed which caused its demise)

    Votes: 64 42.4%

All of that doesn't detract from the fact that while 4e was out it lead to Pathfinder and an entire rise if the OSR games, all of which I am sure designed by a lot of people who wanted D&D the way they remember it, and it lead to a lot of good games being designed.

So in many ways 4e's design lead to a lot of great things for the hobby as a whole.

I can recognize that even though I myself have no real desire to play any of those OSR games. To me, 5e is WotCs own OSR game. And its a really good one.

I don't know that I would call 5E an OSR style game. That seems like a stretch to me. But I think that is a whole other discussion.

I appreciate this response and the clarification. Again though, I think thinking of it in terms of movement forward or backwards, isn't terribly helpful. The issue for me when 4E came out wasn't that they moved the game forward, it was the way in which it moved forward. This is a very important distinction. I had wanted the game to progress and grow, to eliminate stuff that didn't work and innovate in key areas. And I wasn't out to play the game I remembered playing back in the late 80s or early 90s either. What I wanted was the stuff I liked about D&D, the things that brought me to the table to play the game. I did want it to have a certain identifiable "D&Dness". What that is will vary from person to person of course. In the end the way the class powers ended up working just didn't capture it for me.

With any edition of D&D I do want it to move forward, address issues of previous editions and also feel like current (like it is fresh and new, drawing on ideas that people are actively talking about and interested in). I was on board for every change from 1E to 3E to 3.5. It was only when we came to 4E that I had an issue.
 

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I don't know that I would call 5E an OSR style game. That seems like a stretch to me. But I think that is a whole other discussion.

I appreciate this response and the clarification. Again though, I think thinking of it in terms of movement forward or backwards, isn't terribly helpful. The issue for me when 4E came out wasn't that they moved the game forward, it was the way in which it moved forward. This is a very important distinction. I had wanted the game to progress and grow, to eliminate stuff that didn't work and innovate in key areas. And I wasn't out to play the game I remembered playing back in the late 80s or early 90s either. What I wanted was the stuff I liked about D&D, the things that brought me to the table to play the game. I did want it to have a certain identifiable "D&Dness". What that is will vary from person to person of course. In the end the way the class powers ended up working just didn't capture it for me.

With any edition of D&D I do want it to move forward, address issues of previous editions and also feel like current (like it is fresh and new, drawing on ideas that people are actively talking about and interested in). I was on board for every change from 1E to 3E to 3.5. It was only when we came to 4E that I had an issue.

I can totally agree with what you say here and in some ways what you say here is part of my own personal reasons for the part of 4e I didn't like.

So its possible that some of what I have said before are ideas I can change my opinion about.

Part of my own personal beef with 4e is I feel the game we got wasn't what WotC was advertising... To me, they were advertising a version of D&D that was very similar to Saga edition Star Wars, and they most certainly did not do that. I don't know if other people thought that too, but that was the impression I got. My second beef is I hate the Essentials line for 4e. That killed the game for me. It was a bad decision.
 

I can totally agree with what you say here and in some ways what you say here is part of my own personal reasons for the part of 4e I didn't like.

So its possible that some of what I have said before are ideas I can change my opinion about.

Part of my own personal beef with 4e is I feel the game we got wasn't what WotC was advertising... To me, they were advertising a version of D&D that was very similar to Saga edition Star Wars, and they most certainly did not do that. I don't know if other people thought that too, but that was the impression I got. My second beef is I hate the Essentials line for 4e. That killed the game for me. It was a bad decision.

I was always very unclear on what they were advertising as the game developed, because I kept hearing different things, but the Saga thing rings true (and is interesting to me because Saga was where I thought 3E was taking a wrong turn for me....it was around that time that I just found I wasn't really that in love with the stuff WOTC was doing-----between Saga Star Wars and the Ravenloft module they put out in hardcover, I realized what they were going for and what I wanted in play were very different). So I think by the time they released 4E I had already become a bit wary of WOTCs direction.

I do think you are absolutely right that 4E helped fuel the OSR. At least for me and my group, we started looking at things like Lamentations of the Flame Princess because 4E wasn't giving us what we wanted in D&D and because of that we had to start asking ourselves what it was we wanted. One thing many of us did was go back and play earlier editions of the game (I spent a lot of time reading the 1E DMG from a couple years before 4E came out and then again after it was released and playing 2E, my business partner got really into first edition and basic---as well as LotFP). For me it wasn't so much about going back to the core mechanics and repeating them verbatim, it was finding the things that they threw out from the game that I liked. I realized some of the mechanics I remembered being quirky in earlier editions, actually appealed to me. I also realized at that time what had been bugging me about 3E and why some of my games felt different under that system (I loved 3e but there were things it did that pushed our group towards a style of play I enjoyed less).
 

Yeah, I'd have to say one of my biggest beefs with 4e ultimately wasn't the system itself. I played it a handful of times, and it played pretty much exactly the way you'd expect it to when in the hands of a mediocre GM---grindy, tactical-combat focused with an emphasis on using the powers, constantly feeling like I was getting pulled out of the game / milieu.

I actually didn't have a problem with AEDU in concept; I was very familiar with the online game Guild Wars at that time (apropos of nothing, I've never played a single minute of World of Warcraft) and it made sense to me---"Yeah, they're Guild-Warsing up 4e to try and give classes equal weight, just in different spheres." Totally made sense, didn't have a problem with the concept......until I played it and the whole experience just felt flat.

From my point of view it wasn't that 4E advanced the mechanics and I was afraid or unwilling to try, it just kept mucking with how I liked to play. The new mechanics kept getting in the way for me.....it just didn't feel right for the kind of fantasy I expect in D&D for me. If others were able to fit it to their desired fantasy campaign, again that is totally fine, I am not going to tell them they are wrong. I think when folks reduce those of us who didn't like 4E to "they couldn't think outside the box" or "they were just being nostalgic", it is a bit insulting and basically saying our tastes in games are incorrect.

Bedrock's quote captures the real problem for me more than anything else. It wasn't just that D&D 4 wasn't working for me, it was that any time I tried to have a conversation about it, some 4e fan inevitably would make a comment along the lines of, "This is the way it is, this is the new D&D, and if you don't like it, it's probably because your RPG tastes aren't 'refined' or 'sophisticated' enough to detect the brilliance that is 4e."

It's much the same way I feel about Apple. I don't particularly care for Apple products, they're fine enough for what they are (decent quality, if overpriced bits of technology for people who enjoy a particular kind of user experience). It's the moronic Apple fanboys/fangirls that make me hate the company with a burning passion.
 

I do think that if the 4e engine was given another real edition of what everybody was learning, and if it had been available via OGL, we'd have seen it grow to its own thing and maybe we would be seeing RPGs like Guild Wars 2 and World of Warcraft brought back as an RPG because this systems core ideas are really good for games like that.

The only RPG I can think of now using the ideas of 4e is Strike! which looks like 4e's tactical system mixed with a simple d6 die rolling system mixed with some system ideas from Apocalypse World.

Its very interesting to see how impactful Wizards has been to the RPG hobby... They do 3e, and make the OGL... Hobby freaking booms and a lot of new companies and games get made. Then the d20 system starts to falter and they go with 4e's radical change...leading to a splintering off of the d20 system to be taken over completely by a different company and Pathfinder coming out along with the OSR games.

We also see the Indie games explode in the last few years with Fate and Apocalypse World leading the way and 13th Age.

Now we have 5e...

How will Wizards change the hobby now... Everything they have done the last 15 years has had a profound impact for the better for the hobby as a whole. Its just ironic that all these benefits for the hobby has probably not been good for their own D&D games overall. To me its ironic.

Will 4e have been more successful if it used the OGL?
 

The more I hear how others are disappointed by their expectations, the gladder I am that I have a talent for appreciating the unexpected. The mixed reaction to 4e really drove home for me how variable peoples' tolerance for change is, and how exceptional I am for being relatively accepting of it. 4e was the first edition I bought sight-unseen; I paid no attention to the hype, and ignored all of the chatter that went on during development. Ironically, I did pay scattered attention to the extended 5e dev-mill, and it's the very first edition I have no plans to ever buy.

Will 4e have been more successful if it used the OGL?
I know that 'if only WotC would renew the OGL for 4e/5e...' is a popular refrain, and I'm sure it would generate some goodwill -- at least among those of us who know and care about it -- but I'd bet good money that there are people at WotC/Hasbro/Disney that regret that the OGL was ever even conceived of. They clearly don't want to renew it, unless I'm mistaken, but it'll be decades before the diehards let it go.
 

What 4e had going against it was legacy of perception of what D&D is 'supposed' to be with over 30 years of previous history of how the game was played and then 4e pretty much said that 'this is a different kind of D&D, made for the modern audience, and we are looking at different sources of inspiration than what the previous 30 years had been based on' and its entire design paradigm was fundamentally very different than all previous editions... and it all came down to the public's perception of what they thought D&D was meant to be vs. how the designers thought about D&D at the time and what they perceived as overall changing perceptions of modern game design and Nostalgia by the previous generations won out.

To me D&D 4e was the pinnacle of it's game design, and while 5e is pretty dang amazing in its own right... it's truly a step back towards Nostalgia and the rest of the OSR type of gaming. You can thank 4e for the OSR, as the OSR was probably an indirect result at least of how 4e was being handled. People were simply so used to a D&D with Vancian magic and alignments and specific classes being a certain way and that old schooled feel that anything labeled D&D simply, for the most part with the majority of fans, must have those sacred cows.

I never had that nostalgia factor with D&D. I am a very much a minority when I can say that D&D was not my first rpg. My first rpg was Marvel Superheroes and then Battletech, Star Wars d6, Earthdawn and Shadowrun. Those are my background, so when D&D came out with 4e and did away with all those sacred cows that IMPO were horrible game design, I was overjoyed.

and I am still overjoyed about that with 4e. They took a chance, did something different that required people to really think outside the box, and many couldn't do it. They broke with something new, got rid of a lot of what was bad design from the previous generations of D&D, and in the process made something quite revolutionary that unfortunately also had its own inner faults that showed off its warts and possible bad game design. Maybe calling it bad design is wrong, I don't know, but D&D has always seemed like a horribly designed game that for some reason people just loved.

It's nostalgia for most gamers. For me it's not. I didn't grow up playing the game. I didn't even hear about the game till after I had played a bunch of other games and when I finally got around to playing it, D&D was a vastly inferior product in every way possible. Now for the majority who grew up on D&D, because its their first love, their first influences within the gaming hobby, and it was their guiding light into roleplaying, that nostalgia factor is so strong in a lot of gamers and they had so much fun and it influenced so many people at such an early age that no matter where gaming goes in the modern day, many of those players will still play D&D as their first priority game, their chosen game, and they want D&D to be the game they remember playing and the game they have played for twenty/thirty years and there is nothing wrong with that. And for these people, 4e was so jarring a difference, it was changed in so many ways that a lot of the people who grew up playing D&D just wouldn't/couldn't look past those differences.

4e did bring in a lot of people who grew up with the internet and the video game/MMO generation because in many ways D&D 4e was made for them. It was made for a new generation of gamer, and I don't think Wizards even thought of how the many would react. With 5e it's quite obvious that they decided to go back to the many... and those who started playing D&D with 4e see it as a step backward, and rightly so.

In the end it's all perception, its subjective, it's a factor of how important that nostalgia feeling is in some people, and with many they just couldn't get past it. Their own personal paradigms of what D&D is was so strong that anything different isn't D&D... even if it was D&D.

I hear what you're saying, and I think this is a thoughtful post, but I don't think nostalgia plays as big a role as you think. All of the people I know who still play an older edition just love it. They don't break anything down and talk about "design" the way modern game whizzes do. They sincerely believe that the older editions had the best design, simply because they were the most fun in their personal opinion. The people I know who still use THAC0, for example, won't hear of anything unintuitive about it. They aren't doing it for nostalgia. It never stopped being part of their passion.
 

Meh. I am frankly a bit tired of hearing this argument from people. I think you can't just reduce this to nostalgia, and I think it is a mistake to think of 4e as going forward while 5e is a step back. Brand identity is a real thing. You can't just make a game or a car in a vacuum, you do need to consider why people go to your brand in the first place. Personally D&D wasn't my first RPG, and I had a long history of playing other RPGS, not limiting my gaming to Dungeons and Dragons. So for me when I do play D&D, I want it to feel like D&D feels (because when I am in the mood for it, that is what I am after). If I want another kind of game, there are tons of options out there and I play plenty of them. From my point of view it wash' that 4E advanced the mechanics and I was afraid or unwilling to try (good lord did I try to play that game), it just kept mucking with how I liked to play. The new mechanics kept getting in the way for me. There are other games out there that do all kinds of new and interesting things that don't create that problem for me. In the end it was a confluence of different factors (didn't feel like D&D to me, the mechanics interfered with my approach to the game, the mechanics produced a kind of play I didn't enjoy---at least in terms of combat, etc). If others liked the system that is cool. I think it had some nice qualities and I do think it would have worked for a supers or wuxia style game....it just didn't feel right for the kind of fantasy I expect in D&D for me. If others were able to fit it to their desired fantasy campaign, again that is totally fine, I am not going to tell them they are wrong. I think when folks reduce those of us who didn't like 4E to "they couldn't think outside the box" or "they were just being nostalgic", it is a bit insulting and basically saying our tastes in games are incorrect.

I guess that' how they feel. It is a bit insulting, but if the older editions truly are regarded as no good now it's something we have to live with.
 

I hear what you're saying, and I think this is a thoughtful post, but I don't think nostalgia plays as big a role as you think. All of the people I know who still play an older edition just love it. They don't break anything down and talk about "design" the way modern game whizzes do. They sincerely believe that the older editions had the best design, simply because they were the most fun in their personal opinion. The people I know who still use THAC0, for example, won't hear of anything unintuitive about it. They aren't doing it for nostalgia. It never stopped being part of their passion.

Nostalgia while not the total answer is a significant factor in people still playing old school games. I hang out on old school boards and I often hear things like "that's not the D&D I remember from my youth." But just liking the design of earlier games is a significant factor as well.

It is funny seeing old schooler like games that have the elements that they hate in later D&D editions.
 

I guess that' how they feel. It is a bit insulting, but if the older editions truly are regarded as no good now it's something we have to live with.

I am not troubled if someone dislikes an older edition. I am troubled that people attribute my dislike of 4E to nostalgia, clinging to past version or a failure to think outside the box.
 

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