Confirmed: Magic items and summoned monster stats in PHB

[Brother MacLaren]

Depends on the legends and stories you refer to. Elric of Melnibone had a magic sword and a magic ring and brewed up some potions on occasion. Frodo Baggins carted around a mithril shirt, magic orcbane shortsword, rope of climbing, phial of elven starlight, cloak of elvenkind and food that never ran out. Oh. And some ring.

It is specifically the purchasing that I object to. Finding things, winning them in battle, receiving gifts or family heirlooms -- all fine. Stores? No, I hate them. And even more than that, I hate having players know the finite universe of possible items to buy. It's not "I'd like to find a magic axe of some sort for sale"; it's "I want a +1 flaming dragonbane dwarven waraxe, so that costs 18,000 gp, and it should be available for sale in any large city."

Hoister, I'm not particularly interested in 'making do' with those +2 Nunchaku the DM randomly rolled up, just as Merry and Pippin got their hands on magical *short swords* and didn't have to 'make do' with an interesting selection of magical polearms.

Yes, well, in a game with an emphasis on DM judgement calls, a DM will take player needs and convenience into consideration and choose particular treasures. Maybe neat items with hidden magical properties that aren't revealed until a dramatic moment. In a game where PCs can pick and choose, they all get the "Big Six." That was a HUGE reason for the "Big Six" being as prevalent as they were in 3E -- the assumption that PCs could generally get the specific items they wanted.

 

[Stone Dog]

So they go by proximity? Doesn't matter if certain of the enemies have attacked them and other haven't? Okay, it sounds like your gaming group has agreed on a house rule for how summoned creatures will act. That's your perogative. At least you have some definition rather than "they do whatever the PC wants them to do regardless of ability to communicate."

Nope. Doesn't matter who has attacked who in any way. The targets don't even have to be combatants. The spell dictates that they attact your opponents. As long as the caster is perfectly clear who the opponents are (as in; An individual or group who is your rival, one who attempts to stop your progression or one who objects to you.), they go after the opponents regardless of how a creature might personally define "enemy."

I can summon celestials to slaughter good people serving the same god if I want to (well, not as a cleric). They will do it. They will wail and lament, but they will do it.

Which is your reading?

My reading is the one that says Protection from X protects from X and not something that isn't X. I have to admit that this one would be a house ruling according to the RAW. Sorry about that.

As far as the RAW goes, I have to admit you are right about that part. As ridiculous as it is, Protection from Evil can protect you from something that isn't Evil and Protection from Good can protect you from something that isn't Good. My mistake there.

 

[lukelightning]

Depends on the legends and stories you refer to. Elric of Melnibone had a magic sword and a magic ring and brewed up some potions on occasion. Frodo Baggins carted around a mithril shirt, magic orcbane shortsword, rope of climbing, phial of elven starlight, cloak of elvenkind and food that never ran out. Oh. And some ring.

Not to mention that magic items have to come from somewhere. If people can make 'em, then people can sell 'em. I don't think D&D should be restricted to the conventions of fantasy literature or myths.

That being said, they've mentioned several times that magic items in 4e will play a different role than in 3e (more about "doing new things" rather than "improving you"), and that it's easier to customize a high-vs.-low magic level. So I'd wager that you could easily play a 4e game with very few magic items.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I'm certainly not one of those. I'd let my player know it was a +1 sword after maybe 2-3 combats. But after 3 weeks and 20 combats, they might not know that it is a dragon-bane sword that gives a 2/day reroll on saving throws vs. dragon-caused effects. Or they might not know the sword gives the Practiced Spellcaster feat and forces the wielder to make a DC 30 Will save or be Dominated by his intended victim if he ever attacks an elf.

I prefer DM-given items, especially with secret benefits or drawbacks.

Having items in the PHB invalidates none of this. It doesn't matter what book it's listed in if you don't tell the player what the item is. But once you do, once the PC figures it out, and they will, it's a much greater convenience to have the item in the PHB.

 

[pukunui]

Having items in the PHB invalidates none of this. It doesn't matter what book it's listed in if you don't tell the player what the item is. But once you do, once the PC figures it out, and they will, it's a much greater convenience to have the item in the PHB.

My sentiments exactly (see #56 above).

 

[Wormwood]

In a game where PCs can pick and choose, they all get the "Big Six."

And with 4e's shift away from 'the Big Six', players should be able to choose interesting and unusual items without screwing themselves over mechanically.

 

[Gort]

To be honest, magic items are such a standard staple of D&D adventurer equipment, it makes little sense not to have them in the PHB next to 50 feet of rope and storm lanterns. I think a lot of people who have a problem with this positioning actually have a problem with how magic items are treated in general - like standard equipment. But that's a deeper problem than which book they're in.

I would strongly object if my DM wouldn't let me find out the numeric modifiers on my magic stuff (like "it's a +3 sword, and that's a +2 shield") because it's not like me knowing my sword does 3 extra damage is going to take away from my "sense of wonder". It's just basic game mechanics. I'd object just as strongly if the DM said, "You can take this feat that makes you better with a sword, but I won't tell you what mechanical bonus it gives you".

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Having items in the PHB invalidates none of this. It doesn't matter what book it's listed in if you don't tell the player what the item is. But once you do, once the PC figures it out, and they will, it's a much greater convenience to have the item in the PHB.

But my original issue was the player equipping his PC versus the DM equipping the PCs. That's the REASON for the magic items being in the PHB, and that reason is a problem for me. Do you see how, if the player is equipping his PC, he gets known, defined, non-mysterious items from the PHB, whereas if the DM equips the PCs, items can have hidden abilities?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Having items in the PHB invalidates none of this. It doesn't matter what book it's listed in if you don't tell the player what the item is. But once you do, once the PC figures it out, and they will, it's a much greater convenience to have the item in the PHB.

Besides, that way it'll be easier to market the 4e Magic Item Compendium as a "must have" for all players as well as for DMs. And, let's face it, it'll be easier to fill the PHB V with magic items and spells than it will be to come up with new PC classes and PC races.

"With the advent of the PHB X, half-giant half-ooze war hulk ravagers appeared! And they always were there, just unnoticed! And don't forget that Doohickey of Hickery Doo for your gnome druid (made from the gnome in the PHB IV and the druid from the PHB IX....as opposed to the sucky druid in the PHB II that no one uses anymore)!

Meh.

I am not, I hope, alone in thinking that no player should need to look up "+3 sword" to know what it does. And, for things like, say, wings of flying, I prefer that the player discovers how fast the wings can fly by trying them.

(For the record, I do not tell you that your +1 sword is a +1 sword after 10, 20, or 100 combats. If you haven't noticed that Bob hits on 15 and you hit on 14, that's perfectly fine with me. If you really want to know what your items do, cast detect magic and identify.)


RC

 

[JohnSnow]

Having items in the PHB invalidates none of this. It doesn't matter what book it's listed in if you don't tell the player what the item is. But once you do, once the PC figures it out, and they will, it's a much greater convenience to have the item in the PHB.

I believe the argument is that putting the items in the PHB implies they're purchasable at "Ye Olde Village Magicke Shoppe."

Which is, of course, nonsense. Just because something is in the PHB doesn't mean that every village green-grocer has it for sale. It just means that if it's for sale, somewhere, this is what it would cost.

Just as you can't necessarily buy a caravel or a spyglass in every village, you can't necessarily buy a magic sword, heward's handy haversack, or hippogriff either.