Confirmed - Rangers get d8 HD in 3.5e.

I'm not really sure what tohink of the ranger's drop in HD from the d10 to a d8. As I'm currently the party tank (by default), I don't like it, but with some of the other potential improvements, I knew something had to go (still, wish it wasn't HP :)).

I was hoping they might revise the spell list a bit, but as been said before, can't please everyone.

Anywhoo, there's my two coins

Nathan Hawks
 

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Overall, I like what I've heard about the changes to the ranger class. My only concern is the revised spell list. In particular, the change from polymorph self to the new polymorph takes away the rangers only long distance travel spell. Hopefully, they have put in something to compensate. Otherwise, rangers will not be as usefull as body guards to druids.

Doug Ervin
 

Doug Ervin said:
Overall, I like what I've heard about the changes to the ranger class. My only concern is the revised spell list. In particular, the change from polymorph self to the new polymorph takes away the rangers only long distance travel spell. Hopefully, they have put in something to compensate. Otherwise, rangers will not be as usefull as body guards to druids.
I agree. I would be nice to see the long-range travel still available to them.

And, welcome to the boards! :)
 

Doug Ervin said:
Overall, I like what I've heard about the changes to the ranger class. My only concern is the revised spell list. In particular, the change from polymorph self to the new polymorph takes away the rangers only long distance travel spell. Hopefully, they have put in something to compensate. Otherwise, rangers will not be as usefull as body guards to druids.

Doug Ervin

I never even noticed that they had that spell.

Really, even when I played a Paladin, I never used most of the spells avalible to me. Admitidly, I was a Half-Orc but, even so, spells never entered my mind.

The funny thing is, over the past year, I've DMed a game with 3 very different Rangers. And I've seen none of them use the spells they have all that often. Now this group is by no means handicapped (I've mentioned the Ranger who dealt 226 damage at 12th) because of that lack. Nor do they feel pounded upon--more often, that's me.

What I think I'm saying is that spell use isn't as integral to even the current incarnation of the Ranger as has been implied here.

But perhaps that's only IMC. Have others noticed this or something different?
 

Gator said:

You're right. I missed it by a little and was born in 77. So, why don't you enlighten us as to what the concept was then?


Hey, I'll bite!

Since I first did this research a while ago I've happily taken any opportunity to pimp it!

A quick run-down of the evolution of the Ranger, from it's very earliest beginnings. Or should that be (d)evolution :)

It first appeared in the Strategic Review (SR), a short 'zine issued periodically and which was also where the Illusionist class was first introduced. This was for Original D&D, and appeared after Greyhawk/Blackmoor/Eldritch Wizardry.

Hit Dice
When introduced in SR the ranger started with 2d8 HD and went up to 11d8. Put into perspective, all fighters only had d8 HD too, and maxed out at 9d8. They were "tough and hardy wilderness warriors".

In AD&D 1e, They kept this 2d8 up to 11d8 HD regime while fighters and paladins moved to D10 HD. Rangers where hardier at 1st level, and could get more CON bonuses, but were down a peg or two.

In 2e, the ranger went to D10 HD along with the fighter and paladin, but started with 1d10 like the others.

In 3e the ranger continues in parity with the other fighting classes.

Analysis: The ranger has gradually lost hardiness over his incarnations.

Spell Use
In SR Starting at 9th level the ranger started getting MU spells, and at 10th started getting Cleric spells. He had an unrestricted list for both, and by 20th level he could easily be casting 7th level Cleric and MU spells. (OK, this was *definitely* over the top!)

In 1e the ranger was limited to 1st-3rd level Druid spells and 1st-2nd MU spells (although he had the full lists to choose from). This was quite a step down from his earlier power, but still very useful.

In 2e the ranger had a small and restricted list of feeble cleric spheres, with very few general useful or utility spells.

In 3e the ranger gets spells sooner, and has a better list of spells (although it is markedly worse than any of the other lists, and doesn’t have any unique spells at all, unlike the Paladin for instance)

Analysis: The rangers spell casting ability has fluctuated with time, dipping to a nadir in 2e, but making a spirited recovery in 3e. His flexibility in spells available has dropped since the origins and 1e days considerably though.

Favoured Enemy
In SR, the ranger can add his level to his damage bonus in all attacks against “giant class” creatures, which was everything from goblins and orcs up to true giants.

In 1e the ranger has the same ability.

In 2e the damage bonus is lost, but the ranger gets +4 to hit his “hated enemy” and there is some kind of personality problem associated with that enemy – he gets –4 on reaction rolls from those enemies. As Cyberzombie puts it “Kind of pointless, since 100% of 2e rangers I knew would attack there species enemy on sight, unless the odds where *overwhelmingly* against them”

In 3e the ranger has a wider range of choices for a favoured enemy, and he gets +1 damage (and on certain skill checks) per 5 levels. Additional favoured enemies can be started at each 5 levels, growing appropriately.

Analysis: The favoured enemy has grown in scope and has a lot more variety possible than it used to, but it’s power has decreased markedly. The 2e rules didn’t scale but gave an excellent bonus to hit. In general I’d say this area is a win for the 3e ranger, but I greatly prefer the alt.ranger method of adding a point of favoured enemy every odd level, either stacking it or starting something new. Total bonuses are less, but it has more of a chance to grow organically with the campaign and gives a more even growth across levels.

Woodsy-ness
In SR the ranger had the unique ability to track, he surprised opponents 50% more often and was only 50% as likely to be surprised as other classes (in those days you were surprised on 1-2 on a 1d6. The ranger surprised others on 1-3 and was only surprised on a 1)

In 1e the ranger continued as before

(In Unearthed Arcana, 1.5e, tracking became level-dependent as opposed to in 1E, where every Ranger had the same chance to track given the same circumstances. Rangers were required to be proficient a limited group of weapons that fit the huntsman archetype before gaining proficiency with any others: (1) the bow or the crossbow of any type, required at 1st level; (2) dagger or knife; (3) a spear or an axe; and (4) a sword. They gained Weapon Specialization along with the Fighter, but were limited to specialization in one of the above weapons.)

In 2e I believe he lost the surprise benefits and they were replaced by a base 10%/15% move silently and hide in cover and growing slowly across levels. This chance was halved when not in “woodsy” situations – certainly in dungeons and towns. This could only be used in light armour. Tracking was available to all, but non-rangers had an arbitrary -6 penalty on all their checks, while rangers got bonuses as they went up levels. Player's Option made Tracking freely available to all with no penalties, though Rangers still got it for free. Rangers lost the weapon specialisation granted to them in Unearthed Arcana.

In 3e he gets the track feat for free (anyone can get it though) and class skill access to spot, listen, hide, move silently, as well as wilderness lore. WotC said that they tied the Track feat into Wilderness Lore expressly so that Rangers would take this skill.

Analysis: 2e castrated the rangers ability to be sneaky and unsurprised. 3e has thankfully restored that ability, although at a price – with the limited number of skill points many rangers will have to miss other things out in order to get the benefit here.

Funky Followers
In SR, At high level the ranger attracts a group of special followers; character classes and good creatures, including the possibility of a golden dragon. Up to about 24 max, I think.

In 1e high level rangers attract a group of special followers; character classes and good creatures, including the possibility of treants and a silver dragon. Same sort of number, but the power levels at the upper end are toned down a little.

In 2e high level rangers attract a group of special followers; character classes and good creatures. The power level of followers are toned down across the board.

In 3e this class ability has disappeared completely. There is now a “leadership” feat which is available to everyone to gain a cohort and followers, but they are very different from the wide range of followers that rangers alone used to get

Analysis: The special followers of the ranger have been eroded over time, disappearing completely in third edition. Does this parallel the removal of the “build a fortress/temple/college and get a bunch of followers & men-at-arms turn up” that used to be par for the course for Fighters and Clerics? I wouldn’t like to say. It does remove one of the targets that high-level rangers could aspire to though.

Other abilities
In SR, high level rangers were allowed to use any magic items that were involved with healing, telepathy and clairvoyance. Only a limited number of rangers could associate together.

In 1e, they could still use clairvoyance items, but lost the use of healing magic items. Still limited in the number that could associate together.

In 2e they lost the ability to use clairvoyance items, but gained animal handling and a “calm wild animals” animal empathy ability. Gains two-weapon fighting when in light armour. Why? Who knows? I’ve heard it said that the aim was to encourage rangers to become “lightly armoured” fighters.

In 3e animal handling became an everyman skill and animal empathy became a skill shared with druids. These have to be bought out of the limited skill point supply rather than being available to all rangers.. The ranger gets special two weapon fighting when in light armour, for no character reason nor game-mechanic reason. It just is.

Analysis: The ranger has lost abilities from his clear Tolkien roots, and they were replaced with more woodsy abilities, which in turn became skills in 3e. Unlike the rogue who has special affinity with certain skills (their search can be used to find traps and magical traps, for instance) the ranger doesn’t get any special benefit to handle animal. animal empathy is restricted class skill for them and druids only, which helps. Over time, the flavour has moved from Tolkiens wilderness warriors and protectors towards a more generic woodsman. The exception being the seemingly random introduction of two-weapon fighting to the class in 2e.

Over time, the Ranger has become less hardy, lost out on funky followers and had less magical abilities; his ability to damage one wide class of opponents has decreased but the scope of his abilities has increased over time and there is arguably much more variety possible to the class than there was before. (with the exception of melee, which has been lock-stepped into two weapon fighting).

I hope this breakdown of the evolution of the class is helpful to the discussion, especially the look back to the Strategic Review origins.

Cheers
Plane Sailing
with input from Cyberzombie and Paul Greystoke

p.s. I'm looking forward to seeing the 3.5e ranger with bated breath...
 

Plane Sailing: That's a beautiful thing you've posted, because it shows exactly what I'm usually saying.

-The ranger has always been a spellcaster.
-The ranger has always been a hunter/slayer.
-The ranger has always been fighter-like.
-The ranger has never been rogue-like.

If well over 25 years of the D&D game where the ranger has ascribed to all four of the condiitions I've listed still hasn't convinced people of what a ranger is, than nothing will.

Oh, and there's one more thing you left out of that breakdown: from the 0D&D ranger up through the end of 2nd edition AD&D, the ranger was required to be good in alignment. d20-D&D changing this stipulation really was the final cutoff point for "genericizing" the ranger class, but course they never went all the way and turned him into a plain woodsman class -- which is exactly what chagrined the naysayers about the 3e ranger, folks who were so vocal that they got a complete paradigm shift for their 3r ranger.

As for the hit die change, I look at it this way: the cleric has d8 and its warrior class, the paladin, has d10. The druid has d8, so its warrior class should also have d10. And the most telling of all is the fact that between the two classes hardened by both fighting and survival, the barbarian and the ranger, are right now only one hit die step apart -- but two steps is practically a joke, given that the d8 represents "average" hit points for an adventurer. Given that the original ranger was tougher than the fighter, and that from 1e to 3e he was just as tough, making him weaker in 3r is just too much of a change.
 
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Jack, I've asked this on your "poll" threads, but still never seen an answer. Why is it that you feel the ranger can only be defined by what it was in the past?
 

Mercule said:

Well, without pulling up the list of rumored changes:

1) The HD. (included for completeness) This is especially bad considering the Ranger is still partially defined by a fighting style -- potentially how good he is at melee.
I don't see nothing wrong with a class having a good BAB and an average HD. You may think that it would be more appealing when it comes to the other classes that have medium HD, especially a druid, but I think both classes will be distinctive enough and balanced with the rest.


2) TWF is _still_ a potential _class_ ability. I don't mind the concept of a woodsman/skirmisher using TWF, but it has nothing to do with the class. Rangers get feats every three levels like everyone else. If a Ranger PC wants TWF, let them use their normal feats.
It has everything to do with D&D ranger class, especially when it was inherited during the 2nd edition. Only this time around, the 3.5e ranger give you option, you can decide to stick with the "classic" ranger or go with a more "archer" ranger archetype.

Besides, I doubt ranger fans would like to acquire TWF as a "normal feat" but rather as a "bonus feat."


3) The continued use of "virtual feats". Either give 'em the feat or don't. Conditional feats are just bad design, IMHO.
Of which I agree with you. See one of my earlier posts.


4) "Combat Paths" are another bad mechanic. I'm not at all keen about a choice made at 2nd level _directly_ impacting choices at later levels. Prereqs are fine, but a swappable slot at 6th (or whatever) level shouldn't be arbitrarily limited based on a choice at 2nd level. Sure, most people who pick Point Blank at 2nd are going to continue with archery choices as they gain levels, but they shouldn't be limited. It violates the "options not restrictions" mantra unnecessarily. Bonus feats would be a much better mechanic.
This "Combat Paths" sounds more like Talent Trees from d20 Modern. Personally, it is okay, depending how it is alloted by level. I hope that you are not restricted to choosing one combat path. I like a mixture of melee and ranged attack repertoire.


5) The fact that the Ranger is still defined by his fighting style (the above was "paths are a bad mechanic" this is "paths are bad flavor"). In adding the "paths", the Ranger is still required to be a pseudo-weapon specialist. That meets some of the archetypes tagged to Ranger, but what about the "ultimate scout" or "ultimate survivor" archetypes. A bonus feat progression that included Alertness, Inproved Initiative, Great Fortitude, etc. would make those archetypes possible with the Ranger, but the 3.5 Ranger is no better at filling those than the Rogue.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I mean personally, some fighting style are effective in wilderness situations, especially when one takes advantage of the terrain.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
Jack, I've asked this on your "poll" threads, but still never seen an answer. Why is it that you feel the ranger can only be defined by what it was in the past?

To be fair to Jack, this statement can be applied to paladins (warriors of a LG god? why only LG?) or druids (why the weapon restrictions?) or bards (why does a minstrel know more about magic items than a wizard?) or any other class in D&D. These artifacts have traveled through D&D since 74, and defines abilities and perceptions of said classes. Rangers have spellcasting because they've always had spellcasting, and someone who knows the game would look at a spell-less ranger and realize the drastic change. Same thing with plate-mailed clerics or LG paladins, you make too many changes and it stops looking like D&D and starts looking like EQ or AU. (Not that theirs anything wrong with that, but Monte said it himself, D&D is NOT generic, it assumes a particular setting where wizards wear no armor and clerics rule at healing. Changing that paragrim makes the game more unique, but less like D&D.)

On to the matter at hand, I was at first disappointed at the HD drop (it makes the revised ranger one step closer to Monte's alt ranger), but I don't think it will destroy a class built on ambush and scirmishing. It does make Con a more important stat however. At most, a ranger will need to learn to choose his fights well or if he MUST be a tank, take a few levels of fighter or barbarian to toughen up (and add some extra feats or class abilities.)
 

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