Confused about NPC/Monster generation

[Incenjucar]

For once, I'm inclined to agree to Lizard and other anti-4th edition-posters regarding all this hand-waving stuff,

The options are pretty much hand-waving, magic item hocking, or flavor change.

This is true in every edition ever.

 

[I'm A Banana]

For once, I'm inclined to agree to Lizard and other anti-4th edition-posters regarding all this hand-waving stuff, at least to some point.

I should note that I'm not really anti-4e. I'm a fan of most of what they're doing, and the stated monster/npc design goals are ones I entirely agree with. I'm just not sure I'm willing to sacrifice my ability to suspend disbelief as much as the 4e rules might tell me I have to. I might seek more of a middle ground than 4e is giving me.

I strongly suspect that if you are hoping that 4E will emphasize bringing more PC-creation folderal to more types of non-player entities, you are going to be sadly disappointed.

Don't put words in my mouth. Instead, ask what I'm hoping 4e will emphasize, and I'll gladly tell you.

As it is, the point of the post you quote is basically to say that a new edition is the perfect time to fix things that were wrong in previous editions. Are you debating that point, or would you like to argue another?

 

[mearls]

So my question would be why don't high-level villains have equipment like you'd expect high-level heroes to have? Presumably, they're raiding the same dungeons for it.

You can give NPCs gear, it's just that gear should come out of the treasure you've put into the adventure, not some extra funds that emerge from the ether. So, if there's a +3 longsword in the dungeon, you can either stick it in a dusty treasure chest or hand it to the 13th level NPC fighter.

NPCs use the same stat progression and a generation method as PCs.

Weapon secondary effects can simply be added on to a monster's attacks. They are all additive in nature.

For PCs somehow gaining monster powers, you can use the baseline guides in the DMG to figure out how you want to do that. It's a lot easier, and simpler for the game's overall complexity load, to let individual DMs fiddle with that within the context of the guidelines we've given.

As for verisimilitude, the system is designed for realism at the table. It puts the entire question into the DM's hands, because at any point in the process the DM can look at the baselines and put his monster where he wants in relation to them. If you arbitrarily gave the critter in plate an above average AC, that feels just as realistic at the table as jumping through all the hopes to justify a series of additions that also put you above the average. If the plate comes off, you simply drop the monster's AC by plate's AC bonus under either approach.

 

[rkanodia]

Don't put words in my mouth. Instead, ask what I'm hoping 4e will emphasize, and I'll gladly tell you.

As it is, the point of the post you quote is basically to say that a new edition is the perfect time to fix things that were wrong in previous editions. Are you debating that point, or would you like to argue another?

I agree that the creation of a new edition is the perfect time to fix problems with an old edition. I apologize if I have misinterpreted your post. What, exactly, are you hoping to see out of 4E?

 

[mach1.9pants]

I should note that I'm not really anti-4e. I'm a fan of most of what they're doing, and the stated monster/npc design goals are ones I entirely agree with. I'm just not sure I'm willing to sacrifice my ability to suspend disbelief as much as the 4e rules might tell me I have to. I might seek more of a middle ground than 4e is giving me.

For monsters, things might be a little trickier if you want to account for all the numbers. You might give your level 18 demon a suit of plate and find that his AC is a little lower or higher than you want. In that case, you can either accept some wiggle room and change the number or find some reasonable explanation (the guy wears plate, but his AC is a little higher than expected because he has thick skin; you give him a shield or a couple of feats) or tinker with his attributes.

I don't get where you loose 'suspension of disbelief'. If you want to 'hand wave' the stats for super-quick generation; just use the ranges given and SoD goes out the window sure. But if you want to, it is possible to take the extra time for verisimilitude and, as Mearls says, work out that demons AC -pretty much like 3E in time and exactitude- using armour types and feats (just don't accept any wiggle room )

 

[AllisterH]

One thing I wonder about is what "Level X" means.

In 3.x, a CR X monster meant that it was supposed to drain 20% of the resources of the standard 4 person party. With the new power setup, this is no longer true.

My understanding is that monsters are created to last for an encounter But I'm wondering how many rounds does WOTC consider a good encounter for a Pit Fiend facing down just two level 26 PCs.

 

[DandD]

The one problem with all that seemingly 'make-it-up-more-or-less-stuff'-approach is, how is it going to work with the virtual game-table? I mean, that thing will need to be correctly codified, won't it? It's surely not going to be easy for the gamemasters who will use that feature (not that I would recommend it anyway, seeing as how mediocre the online-services of WotC are, at least for now, it may change for the better) to simply fudge up stuff...

 

[Xyl]

The one problem with all that seemingly 'make-it-up-more-or-less-stuff'-approach is, how is it going to work with the virtual game-table? I mean, that thing will need to be correctly codified, won't it? It's surely not going to be easy for the gamemasters who will use that feature (not that I would recommend it anyway, seeing as how mediocre the online-services of WotC are, at least for now, it may change for the better) to simply fudge up stuff...

The virtual game table won't handle the rules. That's the DM's job.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You can give NPCs gear, it's just that gear should come out of the treasure you've put into the adventure, not some extra funds that emerge from the ether. So, if there's a +3 longsword in the dungeon, you can either stick it in a dusty treasure chest or hand it to the 13th level NPC fighter.

NPCs use the same stat progression and a generation method as PCs.

Weapon secondary effects can simply be added on to a monster's attacks. They are all additive in nature.

For PCs somehow gaining monster powers, you can use the baseline guides in the DMG to figure out how you want to do that. It's a lot easier, and simpler for the game's overall complexity load, to let individual DMs fiddle with that within the context of the guidelines we've given.

I love what I'm hearing here, Mike, thanks for taking the time to elucidate me. I might have a slight fiddly problem with the number of 'variants' running around, but I guess if I'm making variants anyway, I can spare a few moments to describe how they arise. Out of curiosity, did you give any thought to how the 'swingy' monster came to be what it was? Or might that traipse into NDA territory?

As for verisimilitude, the system is designed for realism at the table. It puts the entire question into the DM's hands, because at any point in the process the DM can look at the baselines and put his monster where he wants in relation to them. If you arbitrarily gave the critter in plate an above average AC, that feels just as realistic at the table as jumping through all the hopes to justify a series of additions that also put you above the average. If the plate comes off, you simply drop the monster's AC by plate's AC bonus under either approach.

Well, it is important to my on-the-fly DMing style to have a lot of the 'arbitrary' fluxes given cause before I have to explain it at the table. Otherwise, my players and I both loose a sense of a breathing world, unless I do more away-from-the-table work, which, I'm sure you know, is when time is at a premium.

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[FourthBear]

The one problem with all that seemingly 'make-it-up-more-or-less-stuff'-approach is, how is it going to work with the virtual game-table? I mean, that thing will need to be correctly codified, won't it? It's surely not going to be easy for the gamemasters who will use that feature (not that I would recommend it anyway, seeing as how mediocre the online-services of WotC are, at least for now, it may change for the better) to simply fudge up stuff...

I don't believe the virtual game table will actually execute any kind of game actions. It won't be rolling attacks, damage or keeping track of AC. I believe it is going to be more or less a tabletop and online communication tool.