Confusion

Kraydak

First Post
No, not the spell or status effect. Instead, I am finding some of the previewed 4e mechanics... odd (and given how few mechanics have been leaked, it feels like a high percentage, although low-number statistics caveats do apply). For example:

Elven perception aura. This feels (like has been said, although I cannot be bothered to track down the post) like the Dodge of 4e. The radius is *just* large enough that, most of the time it applies to the full party, except of course for the not-in-fact-uncommon cases of combat, or single-file corridors with large parties. Lets not even get into line-of-sight issues and corners. The bonus is small, and tracking it fairly screams "tedious". It isn't a fluff linchpin ability, so why include it at all? I thought part of the goal of 4e was to clean up such effects, with "effort to track">"reward".

Strict "per-encounter" and "encounter duration" (not, perhaps, as confirmed as the elf thingy). Firstly, I *am* a fan of per-encounter if it can be translated as "fast recharge" a la ToB. I am, however, willing to sign my name to the belief that encounter-as-time-frame-definition will be akin to the AoO of 4e (albeit possibly swapping which group it annoys, with per-encounter annoying the pro-AoO crowd). Defining "encounters" is *hard*. You need to worry about whether encounters occur in parallel or in series (problems with both). I forsee many a Sage Advice about encounter definitions and, more importantly, many a heated argument eating up game-time and gaming-fun about encounter definitions.

I worry even more because the problems with using encounters as durations may not show up in WotC playtesting. I would expect it to be most present in less experienced groups where unclear definitions are harder to handle (such groups are hard to playtest. WotC is certainly aware of the difficulty, but its a problem because it is somewhere between hard and impossible to address). I also expect it to be more of a problem in more adversarial groups. I don't know if WotC's playtesting groups are biased away from more adversarial player-DM relations, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Internal WotC gaming groups being less adversarial would surprise me even less.

Add in the existence of non-subjective per-encounter abilities (yay for ToB!) and you wonder why WotC is opening such a can of worms which, if it does turn into a problem, will seriously impact fun and intra-group relations. AoOs can be house-ruled out. I don't recommend it, but it won't break anything. Per-encounter abilities, on the other hand, seem to be fundamental to 4e.
 

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Well, we don't yet know anything about the per encounter mechanic, except that it's called "per encounter". A simple "it takes one minute/five minutes [insert arbitrary but short time period here] of rest to recharge per encounter abilities" would work fine. If the DM lets you rest, your per encounter abilities are reset; if he doesn't then they aren't.
 

Several other games use similar mechanics for their special abilities as 'per encounter'. And they a seem to do fine, no cannibalism at the table during Exalted. Or are you implying that D&D players just wouldn't 'get it'?

I do somewhat see your point, as I've DM'ed with a group of people before who insistently ignored the idea that the DM has any semblance of authority by arguing with every on the fly judgment I made and saying that I was the enemy they had to defeat. (Winners.) Still...I have enough hope that most people can understand when you go into combat rounds or rolling versus someone, that's an encounter, and when you're out of combat rounds and into pure RP...that's not.
 

Kraydak said:
Elven perception aura. This feels (like has been said, although I cannot be bothered to track down the post) like the Dodge of 4e. The radius is *just* large enough that, most of the time it applies to the full party, except of course for the not-in-fact-uncommon cases of combat, or single-file corridors with large parties.

This is my only issue so far. Auras always cause problems.

The bonus is small, and tracking it fairly screams "tedious". It isn't a fluff linchpin ability, so why include it at all? I thought part of the goal of 4e was to clean up such effects, with "effort to track">"reward".

Well, we've heard that they're reducing the amount of bonuses received from various things, so we won't have the "count up all 15 of your stacking bonuses" problem we had with 3e. For all we know, this is one of the very few bonuses that you can get, so it might be even more important.

Defining "encounters" is *hard*.

I disagree. Defining an encounter is the simplest thing in the world to me.

You need to worry about whether encounters occur in parallel or in series (problems with both).

Worry? Not really. Per-encounter abilities help balance parallel and sequential encounters, for me. Instead of worrying about eating up everyone's per-day abilities (which makes a party have to stop in 3e), I can judge whether it should be a fairly standard encounter (per-encounter abilities have been recharged) or a difficult one (most are still used up, gotta scrape the bottom of the barrel to get through this encounter).

I forsee many a Sage Advice about encounter definitions and, more importantly, many a heated argument eating up game-time and gaming-fun about encounter definitions.

You foresee these things without knowing what the book itself contains? I find that to be ridiculous.

I also expect it to be more of a problem in more adversarial groups.

In this case, I view adversarial groups as the problem, because this is a cooperative game. Adversarial groups, from what I've seen, are focused on trying to "beat" the other players, which usually means raining on someone's parade to make yourself feel better.
 

Morrus said:
Well, we don't yet know anything about the per encounter mechanic, except that it's called "per encounter". A simple "it takes one minute/five minutes [insert arbitrary but short time period here] of rest to recharge per encounter abilities" would work fine. If the DM lets you rest, your per encounter abilities are reset; if he doesn't then they aren't.

So long as it is written as: 1 minutes (10 consecutive standard/full round actions). Otherwise you have issues with what counts as rest. I know I sound like I'm splitting hairs, but gamers *do* come up with weird plans involving people being levitated and dragged along by apparatuses attached to Tenser's Floating Disks, allowing them to travel while not taking and movement related actions. Gamers (and I most certainly am one) come up with the strangest ideas... And how restful is riding a horse? The answer *should* change based on the horse's gait, of course. Make it 10 consecutive full round Concentration actions (DC based on the situation)?

But R&C (I don't have it, but did leaf through one) seemed to me at least to come out strongly on the strictly per-encounter side of things. I could, of course, be reading it wrong and it is somewhat out of date.
 

A problem I see is what if the Elf is firing arrows against fruits in a tree, in order to get some food. How often can he use the Elven Accuracy power in this situation?

What if "per encounter" powers can be used all the time, but in an encounter, they can only be used once? :p

An encounter starts when characters roll for Initiative. It ends when the initiative order doesn't matter anymore. What about that?
 

Kraydak said:
So long as it is written as: 1 minutes (10 consecutive standard/full round actions). Otherwise you have issues with what counts as rest. I know I sound like I'm splitting hairs, but gamers *do* come up with weird plans involving people being levitated and dragged along by apparatuses attached to Tenser's Floating Disks, allowing them to travel while not taking and movement related actions. Gamers (and I most certainly am one) come up with the strangest ideas... And how restful is riding a horse? The answer *should* change based on the horse's gait, of course. Make it 10 consecutive full round Concentration actions (DC based on the situation)?

But R&C (I don't have it, but did leaf through one) seemed to me at least to come out strongly on the strictly per-encounter side of things. I could, of course, be reading it wrong and it is somewhat out of date.

I don't have that problem. My players understand that they're playing a game, and that "realistic" arguments as to what "constitutes rest" are irrelevant. If it's clear you're out of combat for five minutes or so, then the question is answered. If it's not clear, the DM will tell you whether you've "rested" or not. Attempts to circumvent what is the obvious spirit of the rules are not encouraged.
 

ainatan said:
A problem I see is what if the Elf is firing arrows against fruits in a tree, in order to get some food. How often can he use the Elven Accuracy power in this situation?

What if "per encounter" powers can be used all the time, but in an encounter, they can only be used once? :p
If "per ecounters" recharge after one minute, than he can use it once a minute. Simple.

ainatan said:
An encounter starts when characters roll for Initiative. It ends when the initiative order doesn't matter anymore. What about that?
Player: I get an 11. What does the apple get?


"Initiative" is an abstract concept used to describe in-game reaction times. An apple has no reaction time, and can take no actions. So your rule makes no sense in a non-combat situation. You need a rule that makes sense when opposing "the world" as opposed to a monster or whatnot.
 

Irda Ranger said:
"Initiative" is an abstract concept used to describe in-game reaction times. An apple has no reaction time, and can take no actions. So your rule makes no sense in a non-combat situation. You need a rule that makes sense when opposing "the world" as opposed to a monster or whatnot.
It makes sense if you consider my other idea, that "per encounter" powers can be used freely outside combat, but while in combat, they can be used only once.

It really doesn't make any sense in conjuction with your 1 minute recharge rules.
Meanwhile, at the King's Archery Contest...
-You still have other 2 arrow to fire, come on elf!
-I know, just let me rest for 1 minute...

Also, I don't like the 1 minute recharge rule, though I suggested it so many times before, because I can easily see characters counting rounds for every "per encounter" power they used so they can use it again, and counting rounds is cumbersome. If you raise the recharge time to 5 mintes, there's also a problem. What if 3 minutes after the end of the combat the group is attacked, those "per encounter" power are not really "per encounter" anymore.
 

ainatan said:
It makes sense if you consider my other idea, that "per encounter" powers can be used freely outside combat, but while in combat, they can be used only once.
Ok, but how do you explain that to the players? What's the justification other than "I say so"?

It really doesn't make any sense in conjuction with your 1 minute recharge rules.
Meanwhile, at the King's Archery Contest...
-You still have other 2 arrow to fire, come on elf!
-I know, just let me rest for 1 minute...
Actually, that makes perfect sense. Only, you don't get to rest in a contest. That's why it's a contest. In a sense, it's an "encounter". The Elf's advantage is that he gets to do it even once, while the others can do it not at all.

ainatan said:
Also, I don't like the 1 minute recharge rule, though I suggested it so many times before, because I can easily see characters counting rounds for every "per encounter" power they used so they can use it again, and counting rounds is cumbersome. If you raise the recharge time to 5 mintes, there's also a problem. What if 3 minutes after the end of the combat the group is attacked, those "per encounter" power are not really "per encounter" anymore.
How often do your players rest in the middle of combat? What are the enemies doing during those 10 rounds? Drinking tea? I'm not trying to be facetious. You do realize that we mean "After a minute of taking a breather.", right?

And other than "in combat", who counts rounds? I don't know anyone who does.

And the simple answer to you question is "If you don't have time to rest, it's the same encounter."
 

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