D&D 5E Consensus about two-weapon fighting?

[DND_Reborn]

@dnd4vr - your chart shows a level 1 rogue doing 11 damage but a fighter doing 9.5. The fighter with duelist style will only be .5 damage behind the rogue. Something is off in your numbers.

The Rogue's damage includes sneak attack since he will use it every round when engaging the same target as the Fighter. The 1.5 increase is due to the 3.5 sneak attack average versus the flat 2 of duelist.

 

[Xeviat]

Comparing fighter and rogue without the fighter's subclass isn't really fair. Rogue subclasses don't tend to boost damage at first (assassin is an outlier, but it is hard to set up). Combined with the battle master being OP at 3rd level, direct comparisons are tough.

Fighter with Greatsword is a better comparison to the rogue, with the rogue using two weapons.

BUT! The rogue should be out damaging the fighter, because the fighter should consistently have +1 AC over the rogue. 16dex plus studded leather is 15, scale mail is 16; 20 Dex plus studded leather is 17, plate is 18. In your comparison of standard action attacks, your fighter has 3 AC more than the rogue, so I'd expect the rogue to be dealing more damage.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Comparing fighter and rogue without the fighter's subclass isn't really fair. Rogue subclasses don't tend to boost damage at first (assassin is an outlier, but it is hard to set up). Combined with the battle master being OP at 3rd level, direct comparisons are tough.

Fighter with Greatsword is a better comparison to the rogue, with the rogue using two weapons.

BUT! The rogue should be out damaging the fighter, because the fighter should consistently have +1 AC over the rogue. 16dex plus studded leather is 15, scale mail is 16; 20 Dex plus studded leather is 17, plate is 18. In your comparison of standard action attacks, your fighter has 3 AC more than the rogue, so I'd expect the rogue to be dealing more damage.

For me, anyway, I am only concerned with a base build. Of course certain fighter builds we have better DPR than rogues, but that defeats the idea that in general fighters should have better DPR.

I disagree that rogues should be out damaging the fighter because of AC or other factors. Rogues have their niche, and fighters should have theirs... the problem is the basic fighter build barely outstrips the rogue (with a greatsword, but then I didn't have the rogue TWFing) in some cases and loses too often in others.

But hey, we all have our own points of view on the topic, so *meh*, that is why I don't like to do white room analysis and such.

 

[SkidAce]

 

[FrogReaver]

The Rogue's damage includes sneak attack since he will use it every round when engaging the same target as the Fighter. The 1.5 increase is due to the 3.5 sneak attack average versus the flat 2 of duelist.

Ohhh, your rogue is using a rapier.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ohhh, your rogue is using a rapier.

Yep, that was in my post but easy to miss if you skimmed it. Of course, like many I personally don't like rapiers in our game, but others do and it is the only d8 melee weapon the rogue can use with sneak attack (that I know of anyway LOL).

Anyway, even if you decreased it to a d6 weapon like a shortsword, the rogue's avg. damage over the levels is still 0.40 or so better than the fighter.

For me, I would like to see fighter's average about 2 points better than the others, even barbarians, rangers, and paladins, but they is probably just me and my love of fighters from decades of play.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yep, that was in my post but easy to miss if you skimmed it. Of course, like many I personally don't like rapiers in our game, but others do and it is the only d8 melee weapon the rogue can use with sneak attack (that I know of anyway LOL).

Anyway, even if you decreased it to a d6 weapon like a shortsword, the rogue's avg. damage over the levels is still 0.40 or so better than the fighter.

For me, I would like to see fighter's average about 2 points better than the others, even barbarians, rangers, and paladins, but they is probably just me and my love of fighters from decades of play.

Disregarding everything else - the fighter base class get's action surge. That's a good bump in damage every short rest. And you can front load it. Why aren't you factoring that in?

 

[Fenris-77]

Freakin' rapiers.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Disregarding everything else - the fighter base class get's action surge. That's a good bump in damage every short rest. And you can front load it. Why aren't you factoring that in?

Because you can't know how many rounds of combat you will have between short rests and therefore you can't average out the bump in DPR. In a similar fashion, I am not factoring in critical hits. At higher levels, the sneak attack bonus dice on a critical hit far outweighs what a fighter might get from his bonus for an extra weapon die of damage. Since some tables have more combat rounds, the action surge boost would not be great because it has to be averaged out over all the combat, in groups with less combat, action surge will stand out more.

That is the problem with white room analysis in this case IMO, there are simply too many mitigating features and circumstances that alter the outcome.

I would like to add that even with this generic "basic" build comparison, the fighter is not far behind the rogue often. The two are actually fairly well balanced I think. My issue is that this is one area where they should NOT be so close together. Sure, a fighter has a bit more hit points, will often have a better AC, and in those way IS better in combat than the rogue. On the other hand, the rogue has other areas where it will excel out side of combat and THAT is where it should excel.

 

[TwoSix]

[MENTION=6987520]dnd4vr[/MENTION] - your chart shows a level 1 rogue doing 11 damage but a fighter doing 9.5. The fighter with duelist style will only be .5 damage behind the rogue. Something is off in your numbers.

Looks fine to me.

Rogue with 16 Dex and rapier = 4.5 + 3 + 3.5 = 11 damage before hit rate.

Fighter with 16 Str/Dex and longsword/rapier = 4.5 + 3 + 2 = 9.5 damage before hit rate.