Constitution = hit points?

[Zandel]

Menexenus: I like that approach. i've used dying at 10+con mod but that looks much better. More in keeping with high level chars fighting epic battles...

 

[Lobo Lurker]

Just keep in mind that the more often players have to roll a save vs. Massive Damage, the more often they will fail that save.

Say you're 20th Level...
...Say you have an ajusted Constitution of 25 after magical effects & items
...How often do 20th level characters take 45 points of damage?

Greatsword +5 (holy, flaming, icy, & shocking) = AVG damage of 29.5 + 16 from strength + 4 from specialization = 49.5

That's a normal fighter (str 17) with 5 strength advances, +5 belt of giant's strength, and Bull's Strength. Once you throw Power Attack into the mix, your players will be making Fortitude saves all night long.

And what do you do when the 23rd level Liche that they're fighting drops one front-line fighter per round?

With a lower Massive Damage Threshold creatures of the UNDEAD type get a significant boost in power (they're immune to such saves).

And imagine this. What happens to your mighty dragons when one lucky crit inflicts 42 (mighty comp. longbow +3) points of damage?

Empowered and Maximized spells become a lot more powerful as well.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

Oh, I forgot to even mention Rogues! A 20th level Rogue with a Short Sword of Subtlty will force a save vs. massive damage each time he/she sneak attacks (12d6 = 42 damage on average).

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

My system

The system I'm working on has wounds equal to strength + constitution. Of course, whenever you change a base mechanic like this you have to modify how damage is done across the board to compensate. The damage is scaled for increasing hit points at higher level, so when you make it a (relatively) static value, damage has to stay near the same range.

 

[Ry]

I don't know if it would work for you, but I've gotten the "feel" I want by capping the adventurers at 6th level, after which they have an "epic level progression" of buying feats, skills, and other classes' 1st-6th level class features. Hitpoints stay relatively under control, with the 18 CON Barbarian getting about 70 hps (so he can take a lot of hits, being designed specifically around that).

 

[Hammerforge]

Just keep in mind that the more often players have to roll a save vs. Massive Damage, the more often they will fail that save.

Hmmm...how do you come to that conclusion? Are you just saying that sooner or later they will fail their Fortitude save?

Say you're 20th Level...
...Say you have an ajusted Constitution of 25 after magical effects & items
...How often do 20th level characters take 45 points of damage?

Greatsword +5 (holy, flaming, icy, & shocking) = AVG damage of 29.5 + 16 from strength + 4 from specialization = 49.5

That's a normal fighter (str 17) with 5 strength advances, +5 belt of giant's strength, and Bull's Strength. Once you throw Power Attack into the mix, your players will be making Fortitude saves all night long.

Maybe so, but if they are high enough level to go up against something that inflicts that much damage from a single attack, then their Fortitude save bonus should be pretty good. The DC for a Massive Damage save is 15, and most characters even at only 6th level have a Fort. save bonus of +5, not to mention any other bonuses they might have. Now if you're using 2d10 instead of 1d20 (which I plan to do in my next d20 system campaign), most rolls will be around 11, making the DC 15 not so challenging at high levels.

Also don't forget that you can use the alternate save results from Unearthed Arcana. I think I'm going to use the rule that says a successful Fortitude save results in -1 HP rather than instant death. So even if a character fails his save (unlikely at high levels), he won't be dead (but out of the fight, to be sure).

Another thing I was thinking of doing was to make the MDT somewhat higher by using CON + 1/4 HP.

With a lower Massive Damage Threshold creatures of the UNDEAD type get a significant boost in power (they're immune to such saves).

Then that would be a serious advantage that PCs would have to take into very careful consideration before engaging with undead. And that, of course, is the whole point of using the MDT: to create a sense of danger and true risk in combat instead of the traditional problem of a single man brushing off the massive damage of a dragon breath attack.

And imagine this. What happens to your mighty dragons when one lucky crit inflicts 42 (mighty comp. longbow +3) points of damage?

That's the beauty of using 2d10 instead of 1d20. The chances of a "lucky crit" are 1 in 100 using 2d10 as opposed to only 1 in 20 using 1d20. So the lucky crit you're talking about will be a very rare occurrence, which truly makes such a lucky shot more realistic, since it would be very rare that anyone could fell a mighty dragon with one arrow.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

MDT is equal to CON + level, or CON + 2/level. If the fortitude save fails, the character is at -1. I like this because it still maintains some sense of realism but also gives the character a chance of surviving if he fails the save.

I originally did this, but then decided that it was better to provide more means of improving MDT-- and I made armor in my game provide Damage Reduction and Damage Conversion instead of giving a bonus to Defense. This includes Natural Armor.

Right now, in my games the feat Toughness gives 2 + HD hitpoints and +3 to MDT. The Improved Toughness feat can be taken multiple times, and each time it's taken, it adds +3 to MDT and 1/- DR from toughness. (I made toughness a named bonus type and applied stacking bonuses to DR.)

I'm also considering adding Toughness to the prerequisites of Diehard.

I use (Con Bonus + Level + 10) for the number of negative hit points you can receive before you are dead.

I use negative MDT. This makes Toughness even more desirable.

With a lower Massive Damage Threshold creatures of the UNDEAD type get a significant boost in power (they're immune to such saves).

Undead are considerably more powerful under this variant, yes, as are Constructs. I don't use a whole lot of either creature type in my games (except some futuristic games which include numerous Constructs), and I don't mind them becoming considerably more fearsome.

I also gave Undead a chance to make a Fortitude save (their weakest save, when they're not immune to the effect) to resist Turning.

And imagine this. What happens to your mighty dragons when one lucky crit inflicts 42 (mighty comp. longbow +3) points of damage?

Empowered and Maximized spells become a lot more powerful as well.

Mighty Dragons have very high Constitution scores and very thick natural armor. They also have outrageous Fortitude Saves.

Also, I've taken spells into account, and I've placed a few rules about how they interact with MDT, including that a spell can't force a Massive Damage save higher than 10 + spell level. (And spells dealing half-damage because of a successful saving throw can't force MD saves at all.)

Oh, I forgot to even mention Rogues! A 20th level Rogue with a Short Sword of Subtlty will force a save vs. massive damage each time he/she sneak attacks (12d6 = 42 damage on average).

Yes. Personally, I consider this a feature instead of a bug, since a successful "Sneak Attack" in real life is often immediately fatal.

I also limit the ability of Sneak Attack to bump up the Fortitude Save DC-- instead of counting the full Sneak Attack damage, Rogues add +1 to the save DC for every Sneak Attack die they dealt. If the base damage wasn't enough to force a Damage Save, the save DC is 10 + the number of Sneak Attack dice.

 

[genshou]

A recent "acquaintance" of mine–and fellow proponent of VP/WP–who goes by the name of GlassJaw may also be able to provide you with some good threads to check out

I'll direct him this way.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'll direct him this way.

Consider me directed.

I've been thinking of using an alternate system for hit points to create more of a realistic feel to my next campaign (D&D).

Well the first thing that throws up a red flag is that you mention you want a variant system for "D&D". If you plan to run a standard D&D campaign and only change the hp system, my recommendation would be - don't.

Alternate or realistic wound systems are much better suited for low-magic or gritty campaigns. The VP/WP system is ideal for settings with little or no magical healing. It allows characters to bounce back from fights quickly but there is always the very real chance of taking a serious and potentially lethal wound at any time from any opponent, regardless of level.

If you want to keep your D&D game relatively traditional, the easiest tweak you can make is to lower the MDT. You can make it a fixed value (like Grim Tales) or have it based on the amount of damage taken (like Conan). I'm not as big of a fan of the MDS system because it's a binary system - either you make your save or you don't. With VP/WP, there are degrees of injury (and even moreso with my Grim Tales variant ruleset - check my sig).

Also, based on your original post, my guess is that you aren't that familiar with alternative wound systems out there. If you can, check out Conan, Star Wars, Grim Tales, and Unearther Arcana for starters. You can also check out Ken Hoods' stuff but I've never liked any of those systems wholesale.

Even if you don't have Grim Tales, check out my variant ruleset. VP/WP are open content so you'll get most of the system in there. I also added my own wound level system as well.

For future reference, check out the OGL board too. There are a LOT of discussions like this in there.