Contemporary Simulationist TTRPGs [+]

[MichaelSomething]

Did we mention Pioneer yet?? I might have missed it browsing through this thread?

I assume having someone with NASA experience write your space TTRPG qualifies it as simulationist??

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mongoosepublishing/the-pioneer-rpg-explore-the-solar-system

"Pioneer was written by software architect Dr. Sandy Antunes, whose space-science experience with NASA, the Applied Physics Laboratory (APL), the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL), and several universities makes Pioneer authentic and realistic. The project was further developed by Traveller veterans Chris Griffen and Geir Lanesskog."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm not sure that Simulationism has been the default assumption for a long while or the prevailing agenda of D&D. Dare I say but I think that D&D has fundamentally privileged Gamism. There are definitely simulationist elements, but I think that they are layered to various degrees on top of a Gamist base. For example, criticism that D&D wasn't simulationist enough is what led to the development of games like RuneQuest and its BRP family of games.

It is not the main agenda of D&D, but certain amount of it is assumed as a default. Earliest editions were rather bad at it, but that is not necessarily by choice rather than the designers were still figuring out things. But yes, this spawned other games that did it better. 3e has a lot of simulationism in it (again, not necessarily done well, but the intent is clear.) And the edition that most openly moved away from this is the one that tanked, so certainly people still expect some of it.

Do you have examples? I would love to hear them.

I mean pretty simple mechanic that a lot of game has where we have number measuring the diegetic capability of the character rolled against number that measures the diegetic difficulty of the task and from this we draw the odds of success (or better yet, odds of achieving various degrees of success,) is simulationistic in the way I like. This is a simple abstaction that represnt causality that actually exists in the setting. Note that some games such as Burning Wheel has superficially this structure, but then they draw odds of things that are not causally connected to the things these numbers represnt from them, which weakens it as a simulation.

 

[Enaknomolos]

Did we mention Pioneer yet?? I might have missed it browsing through this thread?

I assume having someone with NASA experience write your space TTRPG qualifies it as simulationist??

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mongoosepublishing/the-pioneer-rpg-explore-the-solar-system

I wasn't that jazzed about Pioneer; but looking at the preview and what we know so far, I think that it is a strong contender for a version of contemporary simulationist as a style. By that, I mean rather than trying to tie 'contemporary' to some ultimately arbitrary time period, 'contemporary' is about the content of the game: reflecting wider shifts in the hobby while still being sim.

Here are some things that about Pioneer that might count as contemporary simulationist in this way:

1. Made by experts in the relevant domain: it wouldn't be fair to say that this never happened in older games, but a lot was done by amateurs trying their best in a pre-internet era. This led to a lot of questionable choices. Armour and arms in TSR D&D, for instance, aimed at some sort of historical verisimilitude, but missed it.
2. Putting the sim under the hood: Mongoose Matt has said that one of the aims with Pioneer is that the maths for space travel is right without forcing the players to actually do the maths. That way those that know and care can be happy that the simulation is right, and others can just enjoy the in-game consequences of the simulation. To me, this is a big shift from 1980's sim.
3. Combat is de-emphasised: often the emphasis of older sim games was wound location tables, coolness under fire, and so on. In contrast, combat looks to be a marginal part of Pioneer. From a sim point of view, this is interesting. The expectation in older RPG's for frequent dramatic and interesting combats (outside of mass battles) is, after all, usually pretty unrealistic even when looking at much more violent periods than the present.
4. A sim approach to narrative: this uses a lot of older tools, but I think in a slightly more conscious ways. Using events in character creation, rumour tables, and so on to let provocative situations arise fairly naturally.

Obviously, I don't really know if Pioneer will live up to all that; but I think it's an interesting picture of what contemporary sim could be.

 

[The Firebird]

Did we mention Pioneer yet?? I might have missed it browsing through this thread?

I assume having someone with NASA experience write your space TTRPG qualifies it as simulationist??

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mongoosepublishing/the-pioneer-rpg-explore-the-solar-system

"Pioneer was written by software architect Dr. Sandy Antunes, whose space-science experience with NASA, the Applied Physics Laboratory (APL), the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL), and several universities makes Pioneer authentic and realistic. The project was further developed by Traveller veterans Chris Griffen and Geir Lanesskog."

Somewhat reminiscent of Phoenix Command. One of their authors was longtime JPL propulsion guru Barry Nakazono, who also authored the very detailed Swords Path: Glory system. I was told by a friend of his (one of the Complete Warlock authors, it turns out) that Barry had an elaborate setup for testing damage from swords and knives and things like that in his backyard. Then all of that detail went into the system.

I don't think it ever caught on, though.

 

[Umbran]

3e has a lot of simulationism in it (again, not necessarily done well, but the intent is clear.) And the edition that most openly moved away from this is the one that tanked, so certainly people still expect some of it.

Except, I don't think it really came back for 5e, which seems to be doing better than 3e or 4e.

I don't figure many of the new players of the past decade think much in terms of GNS divisions.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Except, I don't think it really came back for 5e, which seems to be doing better than 3e or 4e.

Obviously not to 3e levels, but definitely more than in 4e.

I don't figure many of the new players of the past decade think much in terms of GNS divisions.

No, nor do most players in general. But they still might have preferences that align with those lines. (Not that I think that GNS trichotomy is the best way to articulate gaming preferences.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

My list for a new simulationist contemporary Fantasy RPG of 10 years or less. All these points should be ideally in the core rules, not in the optional rules. Does it exist?

I can't think of anything. I can think of things that have parts of what you want - but nothing that has them all. And you have the hardest time finding the combat pillar. And they seem to be conflicting play experiences.

• The combat pillar looks slow. But more to the point it looks like a mash-up of two entirely different approaches to combat
  • Combat is a highlight so we want combats to go on for a while and want to focus on the detail of the combat with things like body part targeting and parrying. And we want our recoveries to be fast because the combat is a highlight which we get to do again. And if we are targeting body parts we're probably running a game with 1vs1 duels.
  • Combat is something to be avoided and we have fatal blows, slow healing, permanent wounds, and mental trauma. The ideal is for it to be over in about as long as the combat takes, and the game is about the aftermath
• I don't think that there's anything on that social pillar that isn't in Blades in the Dark (which is definitely not simulationist and is about a decade old).
• The Exploration pillar again looks fine - but in a game that's about exploration. I can't think of examples that have them all but nothing looks out of sync.

But as a rule a game about the social pillar (like Blades in the Dark) is likely not to be about wilderness exploration (the way e.g. Eco Mofos is) and vise-versa. And every part of this is setting specific. The only reason Blades in the Dark can have the social pillar it does is because it is set specifically in Duskvol; different settings are different and you need a tight environment to get social status mechanics working.

 

[Neonchameleon]

ACKS

Does it have any current success? It's well over a decade old (2012) and the relevant subreddit (r/Autarch) has had a single lonely post in the past month, three the previous month, and one the month before that.

 

[The Firebird]

Does it have any current success? It's well over a decade old (2012) and the relevant subreddit (r/Autarch) has had a single lonely post in the past month, three the previous month, and one the month before that.

The game has been banned from discussion on several of the big RPG subreddits and so the community has moved elsewhere. It has had a recent, somewhat successful (I think $150k?) Kickstarter for an expansion book.

I do wonder if the split around that game contributed to the decline in simulationism. It is maybe the biggest osr simulationist game, but it (rightly or wrongly; I don't want to derail the thread so I will say nothing more and request we don't go into it) isn't discussed for reasons that go beyond the game. There's less air for a simulationist alternative because many people who want that play ACKS; and ACKS has a low ceiling because many people will never touch it.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The game has been banned from discussion on several of the big RPG subreddits and so the community has moved elsewhere. It has had a recent, somewhat successful (I think $150k?) Kickstarter for an expansion book.

I do wonder if the split around that game contributed to the decline in simulationism. It is maybe the biggest osr simulationist game, but it (rightly or wrongly; I don't want to derail the thread so I will say nothing more and request we don't go into it) isn't discussed for reasons that go beyond the game. There's less air for a simulationist alternative because many people who want that play ACKS; and ACKS has a low ceiling because many people will never touch it.

I don't see how it could have. If there was a large demand for simulationism then people would have found or made a simulationist game with less toxic associations than ACK has or a less toxic OSR game would have drifted that way. And e.g. GURPS still exists. If there's only one major game doing that it's already on life support.