control undead wiz/sor spell

[Shard O'Glase]

I read the necromanitc effects thread and it reminded me of a ? I had, and since I didn't want to divert that threads focus here is a new thread.

Wiz/sor have a control undead spell in the PH it's like 6th or 7th levels and basically sucks more than is comprehensible. T&B has a better control undead spell and it is only 2nd level. Has there been any errata or anything on these spells. The 2nd level control undead spell in T&B actually makes the wiz/sor a decent necromancer for the legions of undead idea, and I like it a lit. But it seems too good compared to the control undead spell in the PH.

I might want to keep it anyways because I felt the clerics of fluffy bunnies rule the universe in undead creation and control while wiz/sor suck system was lamer than the Batman & Robin movie. But I wanted to canvass other peoples oppinion on this spell and see if any official clarrifications have come up to deal with it.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Wiz/sor have a control undead spell in the PH it's like 6th or 7th levels and basically sucks more than is comprehensible.

It is a level 7 spell. I would say the ability to control up to 26 HD of undead (minimum as a 13th level caster) does not incomprehensibly suck.

T&B has a better control undead spell and it is only 2nd level. Has there been any errata or anything on these spells. The 2nd level control undead spell in T&B actually makes the wiz/sor a decent necromancer for the legions of undead idea, and I like it a lit. But it seems too good compared to the control undead spell in the PH.

You can only command one undead creature with this spell, not legions. The duration is better, however, at 1 day/level. Use this when you want a cohort for a few days.

 

[Nish]

Read the description of Dominate Person, then read the description of Control Undead. Notice that in the description of Dominate Person it goes on about the subject not performing any obviously self destructive actions, or being able to resist actions that go against its nature. The description of Control Undead is conspicuously silent on this topic, which forces one to come to the conclusion that the designers did not intend any kinds of restriction on the types of commands that may be given to and carried out by the subject of this spell (other than that the commands must be verbal as opposed to telepathic).

So theoretically, you could cast this on a vampire, hand it a mallet and a stake, and tell it: "Use that to pound this into your chest", and it would proceed to kill itself. Or how about telling a lich to cast Disintegrate on its phylactery?

Of course this, like all else, is subject to DM nerfi.. er, interpretation.

However, this spell most certainly Does Not Suck. Although it appears to designed more for characters who are having to fight undead as opposed to evil necromancers building a legion of undead (clerics are better at the whole undead thing anyway).

 

[LordAO]

Command Undead works just like Charm Person, it doesnt let you dominate the undead (unless they are unintelligent). It just makes them view you as a trustes friend and ally. Control Undead, on the other hand, actually allows you to control the undead creatures.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Command Undead works just like Charm Person, it doesnt let you dominate the undead (unless they are unintelligent). It just makes them view you as a trustes friend and ally. Control Undead, on the other hand, actually allows you to control the undead creatures.

Yeah but it's 7th level and lasts for what minutes. That sucks. Yeah it can effect multiple creatures a big +, and you can command them to commit suicidal acts an very small +, but it only effects undead, and it lasts for minutes. Utter and total suckage for a 7th level spell. Check dominate person it lasts days, and while I can't command them to commit suicide I can say open your mouth and close your eyes and you'll get a great big surprise, and then coup de grace them. The multiple creatures part is nice, but it is the weak form of multiple creature and based off total HD and not just 1 creature per level. Compare this to a chained dominate, one vs a fairly braod and common group medium sized humanoids lasts for days, effects 1 creature per level within 30' but extra targets get a +4 bonus to save, this effects a smaller group of creatures a narrower and much rarer group undead, and it lasts minutes. The comparrison is not even close a chained dominate beats the crap out of this spell. It might be a decent 5th level spell or a somewhat strong 4th but it's a weak 6th and a sucky 7th.

While the control undead in T&B gives absolute verbal control over uninteligent, and charm person control over intelligent undead, is 2nd level and lasts days. If I was playing a necromancer I don't even want to think of the havock I could rain down on the world with this spell especially with extend and chain spell feats. I think way too good for 2nd level, I think it would be a powerful 3rd and a decent 4th level spell.

 

[LordAO]

Actually, you can't coup de grace undead. Look, if you don't like the spell, don't get it. But I think it is still very useful and plan to use it to full effect.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Yes you can't technically coup de grace an undead, but you can ram a wooden stake through their heart, say how about we travel back to my evil undeground base teleport with me, and then telerport them into sunlight, get a bunch of goons to surround them and the delay so they can coordinate full attacks on the undead etc.

And sure go ahead and waste a 7th level slot for a weak spell it may come in handy in the right situations but then again so can gust of wind and that would suck hard for a 7th level spell to.