Conversions.

[thedungeondelver]

I guess the 1e, 2e, OD&D tag is gone...So "History" then?

Anyway.

The question was brought up - or rather, I broached the subject, of conversions.

There's the initial idea of "Well why does it matter to you, you're down in the 'won't play 4e' column already, we know that".

Well, let me just say this about that:

Firstly, there's a sense of propriety about things, a degree I'd like to see preserved even as the game called DUNGEONS & DRAGONS moves away from me. I play with folks who've played all editions, and I plan on playing with people, in the future, who've played newer editions exclusively, and I find it more than a little irksome that the history of the game, both in and of gets poo-poohed and left aside. I might not like, say FORGOTTEN REALMS, but if an FR fan said "Oh man they did this that and the other and it completely screwed up the whole concept!" I'd be sympathetic to them. Kinda like the whole GREYHAWK WARS and turning Gary's PC into Sean Reynolds left me feeling.

I mean, where do we end the throwing out the old to make way for the new and damn any sense of history about the game? If I can engage in a bit of comedic hyperbole, will the 6th edition PLAYERS HANDBOOK (vol. 1 of 16) introduction tell us about how the janitor Tracy Hickman who worked for the Wizards of the Coast software company invented D&D when he was inspired by "Let it Be" by folk superstar Lorraine Williams?

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

Also, the "psh yeah WHATEVER GRANDPA" thing - here's a note: maybe if I thought my gaming wants were being at least acknowledged in some way I might consider buying or playing or saying nice things about the latest edition. But it isn't, and it hasn't been. 4e's push was : your game is old, and bad, and it was stupid, and nobody knew how to play anyway, our game is cooler, and better, and you will like it, because it works better ([ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyR2L-t87b4]to wit[/ame]).

Okay, once the shouting of GET A SENSE OF HUMOR YOU MEAN OLD GROGNARD! dies down...okay, now that's done those who might agree that wasn't the best approach to advertising (4dvertising?) - wouldn't you agree that getting little things right like the scale in the moathouse in T1 THE VILLAGE OF HOMMLET, like not blowing your "Do some homework in our company records" roll to check to see if you realize that no, DRAGONLANCE and FORGOTTEN REALMS weren't the first campaigns for D&D would have gone a long way towards bridging that gap between "us" and "you"?

The point this has to do with conversions is this: the continued stack of -ups that seem to go on and on with 4e leave me no confidence that WotC will get things right.

Honestly, I'm not going to stride around like I'm some self-appointed Gygax family internet white knight. I heartily doubt they need some bozo doing that. But I think Gary's stuff (and Frank's and Tim's and Jeff's and Tracy's and Ed's) deserves a better treatment than what it looks like it's getting. What it got with T1.

If I thought that at least the general verisimilitude of ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS or even 2e for crying out loud were preserved a little better in spirit - and intent and goodwill of the publishing company - I might be a little more inclined to maybe try out 4e again. I don't expect WotC to ever republish AD&D, or even the old stuff as .PDFs. Those days are over, yeah? I'd just like to see a little more care and consideration given when you go mining the old things for new ideas.

Now, Paizo, when they were doing the MAURE CASTLE stuff in DUNGEON and so on? Man, they did it right. I don't just out of hand think that WotC (whether internally or by proxy) tried to do a slapdash job. I just think of late it's happened. And it's not just WotC, either, TSR did it to themselves: Sean K. Reynolds never should've written AGAINST THE GIANTS: THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF. Why? Because he didn't respect Gary's work and he just about crowed about how he never played the G1, G2, G3 and subsequent D series.

So this isn't just about WotC, it isn't just about one or two things, it's about getting the details right.

Lord knows, I didn't "want" to dislike 4e out of hand. Again, I didn't expect a reissue of AD&D "in sheep's clothing" if you will, but at the same time...

Well, anyway that last point is probably best left for something else.

Ultimately I know this will probably get dismissed with a "well aren't you all SRS BUSINESS" but ... it's my hobby. I like it. I know there's more important things in the world but hey, can we not be enthusiastic about our hobbies?

That's about it.

 

[malraux]

Meh, whining about scale changing strikes me as petty and petulant.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Meh, whining about scale changing strikes me as petty and petulant.

Welp, I'm glad for you, and I'm glad that's all you took away from it.

 

[Crothian]

I see this all the time in the sports world. There are pro athletes out there that have no idea of what their game was like or how it has changed before they started playing. There are guys who don't care about the struggles of older athletes or the history of the game. It doesn't matter to them because it doesn't matter to the present game.

There are also ones that know who the old players and coaches were, understand the significance of the history. They can talk intelligently about how the game has changed and honor the past generations.

Neither is better then the other. There is no right way to do this. Sure the mentioning of those as the first campaigns is a silly mistake but it doesn't bother me. I don't know what other screw ups you are talking about. I liked AGAINST THE GIANTS: THE LIBERATION OF GEOFF and have ran it twice for groups that first went through the original modules. I have no idea what SRS Business is. It is your hobby, it is my hobby, it is their hobby, it is our hobby.

 

[Chainsaw]

I see this all the time in the sports world. There are pro athletes out there that have no idea of what their game was like or how it has changed before they started playing. There are guys who don't care about the struggles of older athletes or the history of the game. It doesn't matter to them because it doesn't matter to the present game.

There are also ones that know who the old players and coaches were, understand the significance of the history. They can talk intelligently about how the game has changed and honor the past generations.

Neither is better then the other.

I dunno.. Other things being equal, I'd say the more knowledgeable athelete is better.

 

[Crothian]

I dunno.. Other things being equal, I'd say the more knowledgeable athelete is better.

Why? It doesn't help him throw a 100mph fast ball. It makes for better interviews as they actually have something to say but most pros don't really need it. It might be good fan service, that's all I can think of.

 

[Chainsaw]

Why? It doesn't help him throw a 100mph fast ball. It makes for better interviews as they actually have something to say but most pros don't really need it. It might be good fan service, that's all I can think of.

I misread your post, I think. You meant that having historical context and knowledge doesn't make the one guy a better athelete, I read it as those don't make him BETTER in a more general sense. We can follow-up in a PM if you really want. Not sure anyone wants to read this, heh.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I am not quite sure what your point is, I get that you dislike 4E and the direction it is going. But part from the continual backhanders at WotC/4E your post jumps about so much I cannot follow it.

So what is your point, what do you want to happen? Do you want WotC to republish old adventures as exact conversions with 4E rules? That sort of thing is much more easily done by a fan.

And before you jump to conclusions no I don't play 4E, we enjoyed it initially (and it was awesome to DM) but the grind and map-centricness has left us finished 1/3 the way through the campaign. We play CoC now, DA:O next.

EDIT: Oh and I played some of those old modules and have played some 4E ones, to me they are all pretty poor. Decent modules are produced now by Paizo and Necromancer and Goodman Games and others.

 

[Crothian]

I misread your post, I think. You meant that having historical context and knowledge doesn't make the one guy a better athelete, I read it as those don't make him BETTER in a more general sense. We can follow-up in a PM if you really want. Not sure anyone wants to read this, heh.

No need, I get your point and I wasn't clear at first what I specifically meant. That was just the first thing I thought of of another group this type of thing happens to.

We've had these 4e verse older edition discussions before most have been edition wars. We've talked about the quality of modules before and using today's standards to show the bad old modules. It is basically the same thing. I see this in my ethics classes dealing with the morality of different cultures judging each other and people today judging people of the past. It is quite fascinating to me the parallels between that and our little gaming community.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Can I just jump back in here and say this isn't a 4e versus older editions matter?

It's in the context of getting the feel of the adventures right, by which you (you being WotC) might attract myself and other players who prefer vintage D&D games to what is currently being offered under the D&D banner.

It's about doing things like not making the moathouse dungeon a fight in a tiny basement (for example).

It's about looking at a module and going "S4 THE LOST CAVERNS OF TSOJCANTH is a classic, let's have our ducks in a row when we convert this" versus "WOOO FIGHT WITH A VAMPIRE! WOO!"

Please, that's all I'm asking for. Conspiracy theories about ulterior motives I might have being put aside.