Cleon
Hero
I've updatedthe Bird Maiden Working Draft with some logical-seeming additions.
Converting Al-Qadim creatures
- Thread starter Shade
- Start date
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I don't feel the need to tie them to other SRD avians, since they're rather humanoids that can shapeshift into avians. But the main reason I picked the larger bonus for Wis is precisely because they're divine casters --- they might already have a good Wis, but they will also benefit the most from the boost.
Whew, the CC swanmay gets quite a few boosts, doesn't it?
Anyway, let's get this settled and then deal with the SQs. Did I convince you at all?
Whew, the CC swanmay gets quite a few boosts, doesn't it?
Anyway, let's get this settled and then deal with the SQs. Did I convince you at all?
Cleon
Hero
Most humanoids who shapeshift into an animal form have abilities tied to their animal forms, I'm not sure why you think Bird Maidens should be any different.
Well it's because they would benefit a lot from it that I don't think they need that much!
Yes, the CC Swanmay gets +2 to all stats. I suppose we could give the Bird Maiden the same, or maybe leave out Con and give 'em +2 to Str, Dex, Int, Wis and Cha?
You haven't swayed me much so far...
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
Are you thinking of examples outside lycanthropes?
Gee, and I thought you usually liked to ramp monsters up a lot! I just don't think we can assume they'll have amazing base stats before the template, so I don't mind giving them a hefty Wis boost.
But I could compromise with +2 to everything but Con. It's not super-flavorful, though.
Gee, and I thought you usually liked to ramp monsters up a lot!
I just don't think we can assume they'll have amazing base stats before the template, so I don't mind giving them a hefty Wis boost.But I could compromise with +2 to everything but Con. It's not super-flavorful, though.
Cleon
Hero
Are you thinking of examples outside lycanthropes?
Gee, and I thought you usually liked to ramp monsters up a lot!
But I could compromise with +2 to everything but Con. It's not super-flavorful, though.
Well they're mostly clerics, so I think it's fairly safe to assume a typical Bird Maiden has Wis 14-15 as a base creature.
If you're really keen on Wis +4 I can go along with it, but I still like a decent Dex bonus for them. They can't wear armor or shields and have AC 7, suggesting either Dex 17 or skin like leather. The Enworld version of the Swanmay has a +3 natural armour, but the Book of Exalted Deeds Swanmay has no NA bonus. I'd prefer them to be "soft skinned" in human form though.
Hmm, the AD&D Book of Humanoids version has a Natural Armor Class 7. It also has stat bonuses of +1 Dex and +1 Wis, with the following stat ranges:
Ability Score Range
| Ability | Minimum* | Maximum |
| Strength | 13/9 | 18 |
| Dexterity | 13/9 | 18 |
| Constitution | 14/12 | 18 |
| Intelligence | 9/12 | 18 |
| Wisdom | 14/12 | 19 |
| Charisma | 9/15 | 18 |
We should a few more ability bonuses too, so I don't disappoint your expectation about my desire for ramping monsters up a lot.
How about Str +2, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +2?
Cleon
Hero
The Book of Humanoids stats are for a Swanmay, yes.
I don't mind cutting the +2 Int from the Bird Maiden - the Swanmay has a better Int range according to the Monstrous Compendium - Highly to Genius vs Average to Genius, or 13-18 vs 8-18. That's a mean of 15.5 for the Swanmay and 13 for the Bird Maiden, suggesting a Bird Maiden's Int modifier should be a step lower than the Swanmay's.
Cleon
Hero
Yup. Updating the Bird Maiden Working Draft.
Sure.
The current Alternate Form stats works for me pretty well, but it needs an initial paragraph setting out the rules.
I do like the idea of dividing it into several versions with slightly different abilities in their bird forms - keen eyed day birds, night birds with superior low-light vision, water birds with a swim speed, or whatever. Can you think of any more?
Cleon
Hero
The original Monstrous Manual writeup is vague about what bird forms a Bird Maiden can take, all it says is "They can assume many bird shapes, including falcons, swallows, parrots, and even (at 8th level) giant eagles".
However, The Ecology of the Bird Maiden article from Dragon #218 offers a table to specify what bird forms they can take (reproduced below), and adds a note that "It is rumored that evil bird maidens are able to shapechange into ravens, blood hawks, and giant vultures."
Well I do want them be able to take on a range of bird forms dependant on their class level or HD limit, I do fancy their being some differences in "vocabulary" between two Maidens of the same ability to reflect differences in their ethos & nature. e.g. an evil bird maiden may have the form of a Condor instead of a Giant Eagle, but its combat stats will be the same. In any case, I'd want the differences to be basically cosmetic.
We could leave it to flavour text, I suppose.
Bird Maiden Bird Form Table from Dragon #218
| Level | Bird form | AC | MV | HD | THAC0 | #AT | Dmg |
| 2 | Parakeet | 9 | 1, Fl 24 | 1/2 | 20 | 1 | 1 |
| 3 | Swallow | 8 | 1, Fl 30 | 1-1 | 20 | 1 | 1 |
| 4 | Parrot | 6 | 1, Fl 30 | 1+1 | 19 | 1 | 2-4 |
| 5 | Falcon | 5 | 1, Fl 36 | 1-1 | 20 | 3 | 1/1/1 |
| 6 | Owl | 5 | 1, Fl 27 | 1 | 19 | 3 | 1-2/1-2/1 |
| 7 | Eagle, Wild | 6 | 1, Fl 30 | 1+3 | 18 | 3 | 1/2/1-2/l |
| 8 | Eagle, Giant | 7 | 3, FL 48 | 4 | 15 | 3 | 1-6/1-6/2-12 |
Cleon
Hero
Why don't you post a version of Alternate Form that uses "listing bird types" so I have an idea what you have in mind?
I'm not sure it would be easier in practice. If we say "at level X a bird maiden can turn into a hawk" or whatever, that means the poor DM has to look up a hawk and work out all the stats for that Alternate Form, then do the same for all the other alternate forms the Bird Maiden has.
Actually giving numbers in the SQ is probably less arduous in the long run.
Although if we're not using standard Alternate Form I guess we should give the SQ a different name.
Maybe "Bird Form"? Not very original, but it does the job.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
It's traditional at least to have the DM do the work, not all the poor designers.
The problem is a lack of small bird stats in 3.5e (and earlier editions). So I guess I'm coming around to your point of view. But cribbing from Pathfinder, I'd say they take the form of a bird and get certain flight speeds, ability bonuses, etc, based on their HD, with maybe a few things depending on the type of bird.
The problem is a lack of small bird stats in 3.5e (and earlier editions). So I guess I'm coming around to your point of view. But cribbing from Pathfinder, I'd say they take the form of a bird and get certain flight speeds, ability bonuses, etc, based on their HD, with maybe a few things depending on the type of bird.
Cleon
Hero
It's traditional at least to have the DM do the work, not all the poor designers.
The problem is a lack of small bird stats in 3.5e (and earlier editions). So I guess I'm coming around to your point of view. But cribbing from Pathfinder, I'd say they take the form of a bird and get certain flight speeds, ability bonuses, etc, based on their HD, with maybe a few things depending on the type of bird.
I have a feeling we're basically after the same thing.
Do we want seven "grades" of bird like the Dragon Magazine version?
Something like.
2 - Tiny, slow (pigeon, duck)
3 - Tiny, agile (raven, parrot)
4 - Tiny, fast (Swallow, hobby)
5 - Tiny raptor (hawk, kite)
6 - Small raptor (eagle owl, eagle)
7 - Medium raptor (blood hawk, boobrie)
8 - Large raptor (giant eagle, giant owl)
Oh, I'm thinking the Bird Maiden should be able to speak while in bird form, since I vaguely recall some Arabian Tales that featured talking birds.
freyar
Extradimensional Explorer
I'll go along with speaking, sure. I assume that means they can still cast, too.
What do the numbers represent there? I don't know if we need quite that many different grades, but, yes, I think we're agree that that's the way to go. I still think we can crib the bird-like parts from the Beast Shape spells in Pathfinder.
What do the numbers represent there? I don't know if we need quite that many different grades, but, yes, I think we're agree that that's the way to go. I still think we can crib the bird-like parts from the Beast Shape spells in Pathfinder.
Cleon
Hero
Well, I'd be OK with giving it the 4 size options in the Working Draft, but I wouldn't mind adding a intermediate sizes so the HD range matches the original.
Something like so, perhaps?
| Minimum Hit Dice* | Size | Speed | NA** | Claws | Bite | Abilities† |
| 2 | Tiny | 40 ft. (average) | +1 | 1d3*** | — | -6 Str, +2 Dex |
| 3 | Tiny | 40 ft. (good) | +1 | 1d4*** | — | -4 Str, +2 Dex |
| 4 | Tiny | 60 ft. (good) | +1 | 1d4 | d3 | -2 Str, +2 Dex |
| 5 | Small | 60 ft. (average) | +2 | 1d3/1d3 | 1d4 | +0 Str, +2 Dex |
| 6 | Small | 60 ft. (average) | +2 | 1d3/1d3 | 1d4 | +2 Str, +2 Dex |
| 7 | Medium | 80 ft. (average) | +3 | 1d4/1d4 | 1d6 | +4 Str, +2 Dex |
| 8 | Large | 80 ft. (average) | +4 | 1d6/1d6 | 1d8 | +8 Str, +2 Dex |
Cleon
Hero
That looks good if you want to include the footnotes!
There doesn't seem much difference between the 5 HD and 6 HD stages. I'm thinking we could make the 6 HD faster (80 ft.?) or the 5 HD a clumsy flier, just to distinguish the two. Then the 5 HD bird could be a hefty, clumsy real-world bird like a Shoebill Stork or Giant Hornbill, while the speedy 6 HD stage could be something like a Harpy Eagle.
I'd also consider tweaking the damage.
Come to think of it, the SRD Eagle is Small, with an 80 ft. (average) fly speed, 1d4/1d4 talons and a 1d4 bite. I think we'd better set the 6 HD stage to be at least equal to an Eagle, don't you?
Cleon
Hero
Upon reflection we could base the 6 HD step on the Blood Hawk, which is Small, Str 13, 80 ft. (average) fly speed and 1d3+1/1d3+1 claws plus 1d4 bite in the Fiend Folio.
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