Converting Al-Qadim creatures

[Cleon]

I've updatedthe Bird Maiden Working Draft with some logical-seeming additions.

 

[freyar]

I don't feel the need to tie them to other SRD avians, since they're rather humanoids that can shapeshift into avians. But the main reason I picked the larger bonus for Wis is precisely because they're divine casters --- they might already have a good Wis, but they will also benefit the most from the boost.

Whew, the CC swanmay gets quite a few boosts, doesn't it?

Anyway, let's get this settled and then deal with the SQs. Did I convince you at all?

 

[Cleon]

I don't feel the need to tie them to other SRD avians, since they're rather humanoids that can shapeshift into avians.

Most humanoids who shapeshift into an animal form have abilities tied to their animal forms, I'm not sure why you think Bird Maidens should be any different.

But the main reason I picked the larger bonus for Wis is precisely because they're divine casters --- they might already have a good Wis, but they will also benefit the most from the boost.

Well it's because they would benefit a lot from it that I don't think they need that much!

Whew, the CC swanmay gets quite a few boosts, doesn't it?

Yes, the CC Swanmay gets +2 to all stats. I suppose we could give the Bird Maiden the same, or maybe leave out Con and give 'em +2 to Str, Dex, Int, Wis and Cha?

Anyway, let's get this settled and then deal with the SQs. Did I convince you at all?

You haven't swayed me much so far...

 

[freyar]

Are you thinking of examples outside lycanthropes?

Gee, and I thought you usually liked to ramp monsters up a lot! I just don't think we can assume they'll have amazing base stats before the template, so I don't mind giving them a hefty Wis boost.

But I could compromise with +2 to everything but Con. It's not super-flavorful, though.

 

[Cleon]

Are you thinking of examples outside lycanthropes?

Gee, and I thought you usually liked to ramp monsters up a lot! I just don't think we can assume they'll have amazing base stats before the template, so I don't mind giving them a hefty Wis boost.

But I could compromise with +2 to everything but Con. It's not super-flavorful, though.

Well they're mostly clerics, so I think it's fairly safe to assume a typical Bird Maiden has Wis 14-15 as a base creature.

If you're really keen on Wis +4 I can go along with it, but I still like a decent Dex bonus for them. They can't wear armor or shields and have AC 7, suggesting either Dex 17 or skin like leather. The Enworld version of the Swanmay has a +3 natural armour, but the Book of Exalted Deeds Swanmay has no NA bonus. I'd prefer them to be "soft skinned" in human form though.

Hmm, the AD&D Book of Humanoids version has a Natural Armor Class 7. It also has stat bonuses of +1 Dex and +1 Wis, with the following stat ranges:

Ability Score Range

Ability	Minimum*	Maximum
Strength	13/9	18
Dexterity	13/9	18
Constitution	14/12	18
Intelligence	9/12	18
Wisdom	14/12	19
Charisma	9/15	18

* The second number is for the druid class. These ability score minimums include the class minimums.

We should a few more ability bonuses too, so I don't disappoint your expectation about my desire for ramping monsters up a lot.

How about Str +2, Dex +6, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +2?

 

[freyar]

Are those for the swanmay or bird maiden? Anyway, I will go along with your proposed ability bonuses except for Int. The minimum listed doesn't justify it, I think.

 

[Cleon]

Are those for the swanmay or bird maiden? Anyway, I will go along with your proposed ability bonuses except for Int. The minimum listed doesn't justify it, I think.

The Book of Humanoids stats are for a Swanmay, yes.

I don't mind cutting the +2 Int from the Bird Maiden - the Swanmay has a better Int range according to the Monstrous Compendium - Highly to Genius vs Average to Genius, or 13-18 vs 8-18. That's a mean of 15.5 for the Swanmay and 13 for the Bird Maiden, suggesting a Bird Maiden's Int modifier should be a step lower than the Swanmay's.

 

[freyar]

So we are set with Str +2, Dex +6, Wis +4, Cha +2?

Ready for SQs?

 

[Cleon]

So we are set with Str +2, Dex +6, Wis +4, Cha +2?

Yup. Updating the Bird Maiden Working Draft.

Ready for SQs?

Sure.

The current Alternate Form stats works for me pretty well, but it needs an initial paragraph setting out the rules.

I do like the idea of dividing it into several versions with slightly different abilities in their bird forms - keen eyed day birds, night birds with superior low-light vision, water birds with a swim speed, or whatever. Can you think of any more?

 

[freyar]

Hmmm, why don't we allow them to take any bird form? Or specify a list of birds from the SRD/CC?