Converting Al-Qadim creatures

[Cleon]

Hmmm, why don't we allow them to take any bird form? Or specify a list of birds from the SRD/CC?

The original Monstrous Manual writeup is vague about what bird forms a Bird Maiden can take, all it says is "They can assume many bird shapes, including falcons, swallows, parrots, and even (at 8th level) giant eagles".

However, The Ecology of the Bird Maiden article from Dragon #218 offers a table to specify what bird forms they can take (reproduced below), and adds a note that "It is rumored that evil bird maidens are able to shapechange into ravens, blood hawks, and giant vultures."

Well I do want them be able to take on a range of bird forms dependant on their class level or HD limit, I do fancy their being some differences in "vocabulary" between two Maidens of the same ability to reflect differences in their ethos & nature. e.g. an evil bird maiden may have the form of a Condor instead of a Giant Eagle, but its combat stats will be the same. In any case, I'd want the differences to be basically cosmetic.

We could leave it to flavour text, I suppose.

Bird Maiden Bird Form Table from Dragon #218

Level	Bird form	AC	MV	HD	THAC0	#AT	Dmg
2	Parakeet	9	1, Fl 24	1/2	20	1	1
3	Swallow	8	1, Fl 30	1-1	20	1	1
4	Parrot	6	1, Fl 30	1+1	19	1	2-4
5	Falcon	5	1, Fl 36	1-1	20	3	1/1/1
6	Owl	5	1, Fl 27	1	19	3	1-2/1-2/1
7	Eagle, Wild	6	1, Fl 30	1+3	18	3	1/2/1-2/l
8	Eagle, Giant	7	3, FL 48	4	15	3	1-6/1-6/2-12

 

[freyar]

It just seems like listing bird types would be easier than providing stats. But if you want to do something like this, maybe the Beast Form spells (or however they're called) from Pathfinder would help.

 

[Cleon]

It just seems like listing bird types would be easier than providing stats. But if you want to do something like this, maybe the Beast Form spells (or however they're called) from Pathfinder would help.

Why don't you post a version of Alternate Form that uses "listing bird types" so I have an idea what you have in mind?

I'm not sure it would be easier in practice. If we say "at level X a bird maiden can turn into a hawk" or whatever, that means the poor DM has to look up a hawk and work out all the stats for that Alternate Form, then do the same for all the other alternate forms the Bird Maiden has.

Actually giving numbers in the SQ is probably less arduous in the long run.

Although if we're not using standard Alternate Form I guess we should give the SQ a different name.

Maybe "Bird Form"? Not very original, but it does the job.

 

[freyar]

It's traditional at least to have the DM do the work, not all the poor designers.

The problem is a lack of small bird stats in 3.5e (and earlier editions). So I guess I'm coming around to your point of view. But cribbing from Pathfinder, I'd say they take the form of a bird and get certain flight speeds, ability bonuses, etc, based on their HD, with maybe a few things depending on the type of bird.

 

[Cleon]

It's traditional at least to have the DM do the work, not all the poor designers.

The problem is a lack of small bird stats in 3.5e (and earlier editions). So I guess I'm coming around to your point of view. But cribbing from Pathfinder, I'd say they take the form of a bird and get certain flight speeds, ability bonuses, etc, based on their HD, with maybe a few things depending on the type of bird.

I have a feeling we're basically after the same thing.

Do we want seven "grades" of bird like the Dragon Magazine version?

Something like.

2 - Tiny, slow (pigeon, duck)
3 - Tiny, agile (raven, parrot)
4 - Tiny, fast (Swallow, hobby)
5 - Tiny raptor (hawk, kite)
6 - Small raptor (eagle owl, eagle)
7 - Medium raptor (blood hawk, boobrie)
8 - Large raptor (giant eagle, giant owl)

Oh, I'm thinking the Bird Maiden should be able to speak while in bird form, since I vaguely recall some Arabian Tales that featured talking birds.

 

[freyar]

I'll go along with speaking, sure. I assume that means they can still cast, too.

What do the numbers represent there? I don't know if we need quite that many different grades, but, yes, I think we're agree that that's the way to go. I still think we can crib the bird-like parts from the Beast Shape spells in Pathfinder.

 

[Cleon]

I'll go along with speaking, sure. I assume that means they can still cast, too.

What do the numbers represent there? I don't know if we need quite that many different grades, but, yes, I think we're agree that that's the way to go. I still think we can crib the bird-like parts from the Beast Shape spells in Pathfinder.

Well, I'd be OK with giving it the 4 size options in the Working Draft, but I wouldn't mind adding a intermediate sizes so the HD range matches the original.

Something like so, perhaps?

Minimum Hit Dice*	Size	Speed	NA**	Claws	Bite	Abilities†
2	Tiny	40 ft. (average)	+1	1d3***	—	-6 Str, +2 Dex
3	Tiny	40 ft. (good)	+1	1d4***	—	-4 Str, +2 Dex
4	Tiny	60 ft. (good)	+1	1d4	d3	-2 Str, +2 Dex
5	Small	60 ft. (average)	+2	1d3/1d3	1d4	+0 Str, +2 Dex
6	Small	60 ft. (average)	+2	1d3/1d3	1d4	+2 Str, +2 Dex
7	Medium	80 ft. (average)	+3	1d4/1d4	1d6	+4 Str, +2 Dex
8	Large	80 ft. (average)	+4	1d6/1d6	1d8	+8 Str, +2 Dex

 

[freyar]

That looks good if you want to include the footnotes!

 

[Cleon]

That looks good if you want to include the footnotes!

There doesn't seem much difference between the 5 HD and 6 HD stages. I'm thinking we could make the 6 HD faster (80 ft.?) or the 5 HD a clumsy flier, just to distinguish the two. Then the 5 HD bird could be a hefty, clumsy real-world bird like a Shoebill Stork or Giant Hornbill, while the speedy 6 HD stage could be something like a Harpy Eagle.

I'd also consider tweaking the damage.

Come to think of it, the SRD Eagle is Small, with an 80 ft. (average) fly speed, 1d4/1d4 talons and a 1d4 bite. I think we'd better set the 6 HD stage to be at least equal to an Eagle, don't you?

 

[Cleon]

There doesn't seem much difference between the 5 HD and 6 HD stages. I'm thinking we could make the 6 HD faster (80 ft.?) or the 5 HD a clumsy flier, just to distinguish the two. Then the 5 HD bird could be a hefty, clumsy real-world bird like a Shoebill Stork or Giant Hornbill, while the speedy 6 HD stage could be something like a Harpy Eagle.

I'd also consider tweaking the damage.

Come to think of it, the SRD Eagle is Small, with an 80 ft. (average) fly speed, 1d4/1d4 talons and a 1d4 bite. I think we'd better set the 6 HD stage to be at least equal to an Eagle, don't you?

Upon reflection we could base the 6 HD step on the Blood Hawk, which is Small, Str 13, 80 ft. (average) fly speed and 1d3+1/1d3+1 claws plus 1d4 bite in the Fiend Folio.