Converting First Edition Monsters

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, you've sold me on it. It seems awkward, so maybe they should be secondary weapons or something. And add in something like barbed defense?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
OK, you've sold me on it. It seems awkward, so maybe they should be secondary weapons or something. And add in something like barbed defense?
The spines are the only things listed on the AD&D Pungi's attack & damage lines, but I can certainly see them as being ungainly enough to be secondary weapons - they're on the fish's back, after all.

Oh, and I was definitely going for the "barbed defense" approach.

I'm thinking a dodecahedron or two might feature in the latter, as a substitute for the original's No. of Attacks: 1-12.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, it seems we're agreed on making them a secondary attack. Same damage as for the spiny defense or a bit less?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
OK, it seems we're agreed on making them a secondary attack. Same damage as for the spiny defense or a bit less?
I desire a delightful dodecahedron.

Speaking of that Spiny Defense, should we make it vary depending on the size of the creature, to homage the original's one-spike-per-square-foot approach?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Wouldn't it just go up with size advancement as usual? But I'd be happy to go with 1d12+Con or even 2d12 if you wanted for spiny defense.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Wouldn't it just go up with size advancement as usual? But I'd be happy to go with 1d12+Con or even 2d12 if you wanted for spiny defense.
I meant the size of the creature stepping on it, not the size of the Pungi Ray being stepped upon.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Oh. Hmmm. That seems a bit awkward, and I'd think we'd have to do a table, so the damage levels off if the stepping creature is so large that its foot is bigger than the ray.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Oh. Hmmm. That seems a bit awkward, and I'd think we'd have to do a table, so the damage levels off if the stepping creature is so large that its foot is bigger than the ray.
Hmm... I can see us making it something simple. Say, the damage depends on the size of the creature stepping on the Ray.

e.g.

Huge or larger - 2d12
Large - 2d8
Medium - 1d12
Small - 1d8
Tiny or smaller - 1d4

We could also expand the range and add a cap based on the Ray's size to allow for Pungi rays of larger or smaller size. e.g.

Colossal - 4d12 (max damage for Huge rays)
Gargantuan - 4d8 (max damage for Large rays)
Huge - 2d12 (max damage for Medium rays)
Large - 2d8
Medium - 1d12
Small - 1d8
Tiny or smaller - 1d4
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
You know, I'm just not feeling it. I'm going to guess that other critters with spiny/barbed defense has similar "attacks per size" mechanisms originally that got removed in 3.X. In fact, I'm pretty sure we did that for some hazards, though I don't think any of our "recent" hazard conversions ever made it to the actual CC, which means I can't search easily.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
You know, I'm just not feeling it. I'm going to guess that other critters with spiny/barbed defense has similar "attacks per size" mechanisms originally that got removed in 3.X. In fact, I'm pretty sure we did that for some hazards, though I don't think any of our "recent" hazard conversions ever made it to the actual CC, which means I can't search easily.
I'd be OK making it a single damage figure regardless of size in keeping with standard 3E.

It's not like we haven't got precedent - for example, some old D&D versions of caltrops have variable damage, and they do single figure damage in 3E.

Actually, that gives me an idea. Should we give it "the creature’s speed is reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded" like a caltrop?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, so we have something like

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature stepping on a pungi ray or striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12+X points of piercing and slashing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. A creature that steps on a pungi ray further has its speed reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded.

Then add Impale for grappling?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
OK, so we have something like

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature stepping on a pungi ray or striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12+X points of piercing and slashing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. A creature that steps on a pungi ray further has its speed reduced by one-half because its foot is wounded.

Then add Impale for grappling?
I was thinking of breaking it up into three paragraphs. One for defence, one for offence and on for the "living caltrops" effect.

Also, I think the attack ought to do piercing only damage, like a Sting attack or the quills of our Dire Porcupine conversion.

e.g.:

Spines (Ex): Any creature striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12+X points of piercing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.

A creature that steps on a pungi ray will have their feet pierced by its spines, taking 1d12 points of piercing damage plus exposure to the ray's poison. In addition, the creature has its land speed reduced by one-half due to the wound. This movement penalty lasts for 24 hours, or until the creature is successfully treated with a DC 15 Heal check, or until it receives at least 1 point of magical curing.

A pungi ray can also use its spines to make a grapple attack or melee attack, dealing 1d12+X piercing damage plus poison.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Shouldn't the "stepping on the pungi" damage also be 1d12+X rather than just 1d12? And is +X = Con bonus?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Shouldn't the "stepping on the pungi" damage also be 1d12+X rather than just 1d12? And is +X = Con bonus?
Existing precedents such as a Hamatula's Barbed Defense indicate such powers usually use the Strength modifier for damage.

As for the "stepping on" bit, I omitted a bonus 'cause it's a passive attack. It's the intruder's weight pushing the spines in, not the Pungi's muscles.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Hmmmm. The hamatula's Con is the same as its Str. How do you know it's Str and not Con in that case?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Hmmmm. The hamatula's Con is the same as its Str. How do you know it's Str and not Con in that case?
Gah... that's a good point.

Maybe we can find another creature with Barbed Defence as a precedent.

Let's see we've got the Susurrus, which has Str 21 & Con 16 plus a Barbed Defense with a ... +6 damage bonus.

There's also the Scythetail, which has Str 21 & Con 15 but has no Str modifier to its Barbed Defense.

Hmm... I guess the Sussurus's +6 could be twice its +3 Con bonus, while the Scythetail is a precedent for it not having any ability modifier at all.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Or perhaps WotC didn't always know what it was doing? :p

My vote is Con bonus ;) since I think it's always a passive attack with a bonus due to the intrinsic "spiny-ness" of the spines.
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Or perhaps WotC didn't always know what it was doing? :p
Pshaw, next you'll be telling me they brought out some products in too much of a hurry to find all the stat errors. ;)

My vote is Con bonus ;) since I think it's always a passive attack with a bonus due to the intrinsic "spiny-ness" of the spines.
So healthy critters have sharper spines? I guess there's a sort of logic in that.

OK, I'll go along with Con-based to spare further argument.

Presumably that's just for the passive attacks, with the "active spiking" still being Str-based like a regular natural weapon?

That'll make it:

Spines (Ex): Any creature striking a pungi ray with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d12* points of piercing damage from the ray's spines and is exposed to the ray's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.

A creature that steps on a pungi ray will have their feet pierced by its spines, taking 1d12* points of piercing damage plus exposure to the ray's poison. In addition, the creature has its land speed reduced by one-half due to the wound. This movement penalty lasts for 24 hours, or until the creature is successfully treated with a DC 15 Heal check, or until it receives at least 1 point of magical curing.

A pungi ray can also use its spines to make a grapple attack or melee attack, dealing 1d12+2* piercing damage plus poison.

*Pungi rays add their Constitution modifier to the damage its spines inflict to opponents who strike or step upon them. A pungi ray adds its Strength modifier to grapple and melee attacks with its spines.

Shall I update the Pungi Ray Working Draft with that?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Yup, that'll do well enough.

Oddly, I don't see that we've worked out the poison for these. Sounds like fairly hefty Con damage, maybe 1d6/1d6 or so. What do you think?
 

Cleon

Adventurer
Yup, that'll do well enough.

Oddly, I don't see that we've worked out the poison for these. Sounds like fairly hefty Con damage, maybe 1d6/1d6 or so. What do you think?
Well the standard AD&D versions from both the 2E Monstrous Compendium Volume One and the 1E Monster Manual have "save or die instantly", so I'd like the poison to be pretty nasty.

How about 1d10 Con/1d10 Con? That is also a slight homage to the Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar version, which has "save vs. poison or take 1d10 damage".
 

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