Converting First Edition Monsters

[freyar]

Yeah, this is a tricky ability. I suspect that the original adventure was a way for relatively high-level PCs to power through a bunch of undead and feel cool about it, but that doesn't make for a nice portable monster design. And that last paragraph of yours is why I was thinking of a summoning-like mechanic (creating undead is similar, but how many unconsecrated corpses are around? Do we know?).

Maybe we should break this into two abilities: one for "attraction" and one for control. Perhaps the # attracted can be at the DM's discretion (with guidelines?), but the number controlled can be a more normal (small) multiple of the Master's HD.

 

[Cleon]

Yeah, this is a tricky ability. I suspect that the original adventure was a way for relatively high-level PCs to power through a bunch of undead and feel cool about it, but that doesn't make for a nice portable monster design. And that last paragraph of yours is why I was thinking of a summoning-like mechanic (creating undead is similar, but how many unconsecrated corpses are around? Do we know?).

The Bane of Llywelyn is for six to ten 4th-7th level characters, which isn't terribly high level, though that seems a pretty big party compared to modern day D&D mores.

Maybe we should break this into two abilities: one for "attraction" and one for control. Perhaps the # attracted can be at the DM's discretion (with guidelines?), but the number controlled can be a more normal (small) multiple of the Master's HD.

Yes, I think that's the best approach.

Any idea for names for these powers?

"Marshall Undead" and "Subjugate Undead" maybe? We are calling them Tyrants, after all.

 

[freyar]

I like those names, now let's see about the abilities!

"Subjugate" seems like the easier of the two abilities. Want to make it standard control?

4th-7th level characters can probably handle skeletons and zombies very easily, though, which might make some sense out of the large numbers.

 

[Cleon]

I like those names, now let's see about the abilities!

"Subjugate" seems like the easier of the two abilities. Want to make it standard control?

4th-7th level characters can probably handle skeletons and zombies very easily, though, which might make some sense out of the large numbers.

So use the Rebuke Undead mechanism but with a much larger HD limit? That'd work, although I'd like to apply a cap on the HD of individual undead.

Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant can subjugate vast numbers of undead. This ability allows the bone tyrant can rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead as if it were an evil cleric of level X, with the following additional rules:

A bone tyrant can use this power an unlimited number of times a day, unlike an evil cleric's rebuke undead ability.

A bone tyrant (master or minion) can command any number of undead whose Hit Dice are less than half the master's, provided the total Hit Dice of said undead does not exceed Y times the master's Subjugate Undead level. This Hit Dice limit is a pool shared between the bone tyrant master and all its bone tyrant minions, all of whom can command the subjugated undead. The bone tyrant master's orders take priority over its minions. It often orders a subjugated undead to accept a particular minion as its "commanding officer" and ignore the orders of the other minions in order to create a clear chain-of-command.

The bone tyrant master (but not the minions) can also command a single undead whose Hit Dice do not exceed its own. This undead's Hit Dice still count towards the Hit Dice total the bone tyrants can subjugate.

Should a bone tyrant master gain levels in a class with the rebuke undead ability, those levels stack with the bone tyrant's Subjugate Undead level. Add the Hit Dice limit of undead it can command using rebuke undead to the Hit Dice limit of its Subjugate Undead ability.

 

[Cleon]

So use the Rebuke Undead mechanism but with a much larger HD limit? That'd work, although I'd like to apply a cap on the HD of individual undead.

Here's an "improved" version with what I think is slightly clearer text:

Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant can subjugate vast numbers of undead. This ability allows the bone tyrant can rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead as if it were an evil cleric of level X, with the following additional rules:

A bone tyrant can use this power an unlimited number of times a day, unlike an evil cleric's rebuke undead ability.

A bone tyrant (master or minion) can command any number of undead whose Hit Dice are less than half the master's Subjugate Undead level, provided the total Hit Dice of said undead does not exceed Y times the master's Subjugate Undead level. This Hit Dice limit is a pool shared between the bone tyrant master and all its bone tyrant minions, all of whom can command the subjugated undead. The bone tyrant master's orders take priority over its minions. To create a clear chain-of-command, A master can order subjugated undead to only accept commands from a particular bone tyrant minion who thereby becomes their "commanding officer".

The bone tyrant master (but not the minions) can also command a single undead whose Hit Dice do not exceed its own. This undead's Hit Dice still count towards the Hit Dice total the bone tyrants can subjugate.

Should a bone tyrant master gain levels in a class with the rebuke undead ability, those levels stack with the bone tyrant's Subjugate Undead level. Add the Hit Dice limit of undead it can command using rebuke undead to the Hit Dice limit of its Subjugate Undead ability.

 

[Cleon]

The "Marshall Undead" ability is much vaguer. All we know is its range.

My first thought was to model it on a Harpy's Song:

Marshal Undead (Su) [Captivating]: Once a day, a bone tyrant master can call undead to gather towards it. All undead (other than bone tyrants) with 20 miles of the master must succeed at a DC X Will save or be marshaled. An undead that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same master's marshal undead call for Y. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A marshaled undead walks toward the bone tyrant master, taking the most direct route available. If the path leads into a dangerous area (through flame, off a cliff, or the like), that undead gets a second saving throw. Marshaled undead can take no actions other than to defend themselves, but this "defense" can include attacking creatures that attempt to injure or obstruct the victim. The effect continues for as long as the tyrant concentrates and for 1 round thereafter. A cleric's turn or rebuke undead ability allows the marshaled undead to attempt a new Will save.​

If I recall accurately, Freyar fancies a "teleporting" version, something like:

Marshal Undead (Su) [Teleport]: Once a day, a bone tyrant master can call undead to gather towards it. All undead (other than bone tyrants) with 20 miles of the master must succeed at a DC X Will save or be teleported (as per greater teleport) to an clear area within Z feet of the bone tyrant master. An undead that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same master's marshal undead call for Y. The save DC is Charisma-based.​

However, upon reflection I'd prefer to use a version that relates to the tyrant's Subjugate Undead ability, and I do like the "wandering across the land" element of the first version.

Marshal Undead (Su) [Subjugation]: Once a day, a bone tyrant master can call undead to gather towards it. This is resolved like a use of the tyrant's Subjugate Undead ability (see below) that can affect any undead within 20 miles of the master except for other bone tyrants. Marshal Undead does not require line of effect or line of sight. Affected undead start walking towards the bone tyrant master, taking the most direct route available. A marshaled undead will try to move around or break through obstacles, and will attack creatures to threaten or obstruct them. If the Subjugate Undead check had a "rebuke" result, the undead will walk towards the master for 1 hour and then revert to its normal behavior; undead Subjugated by a "command" result will keep walking until they are destroyed or a bone tyrant instructs them to stop. A cleric may channeling channeling positive energy or negative energy to dispel a Marshal Undead effect. This follows the "Dispelling Turning" rules for an evil cleric except there are no alignment restrictions.​

...come to think of it, I'd also add

A bone tyrant master can marshal up to X Hit Dice of undead at any one time. These undead count towards its Subjugate Undead Hit Dice limits. A bone tyrant (master or minion) can determine the location of its marshaled undead (as per the locate creature) spell) as an at-will ability.​

That way, the master can send out its minions to use their dimension door ability to extricate undead who have been marshalled but are unable to move (sealed in a tomb, blocked by a river, cliff or other barrier, et cetera).

 

[freyar]

Let's start with Subjugate Undead. I like it pretty well, but I feel that there should be a better way of giving it an effective cleric level rather than making a new "Subjugate Undead level." Why not just call it the effective cleric level, since it's going to stack anyway?

I do think I like the last version of Marshal Undead, too, but I want to make sure we're finished with Subjugating first.

 

[Cleon]

Let's start with Subjugate Undead. I like it pretty well, but I feel that there should be a better way of giving it an effective cleric level rather than making a new "Subjugate Undead level." Why not just call it the effective cleric level, since it's going to stack anyway?

I don't mind calling it an effective cleric level, so long as it gains additional HD of subjugated creatures.

I do think I like the last version of Marshal Undead, too, but I want to make sure we're finished with Subjugating first.

Fine by me. It avoids confusion to do one thing at a time.

Let's see.

Revising...

Subjugate Undead (Su): A bone tyrant can subjugate vast numbers of undead. This ability allows the bone tyrant can rebuke, command, dispel or bolster undead as if it were an evil cleric of level X, with the following additional rules:

A bone tyrant can use this power an unlimited number of times a day, unlike an evil cleric's rebuke undead ability.

A bone tyrant (master or minion) can command any number of undead whose Hit Dice are less than half the master's effective cleric level, provided the total Hit Dice of said undead does not exceed Y times the master's effective cleric level. This Hit Dice limit is a pool shared between the bone tyrant master and all its bone tyrant minions, all of whom can command the subjugated undead. The bone tyrant master's orders take priority over its minions. To create a clear chain-of-command, A master can order subjugated undead to only accept commands from a particular bone tyrant minion who thereby becomes their "commanding officer".

The bone tyrant master (but not the minions) can also command a single undead whose Hit Dice do not exceed its own. This undead's Hit Dice still count towards the Hit Dice total the bone tyrants can subjugate.

Should a bone tyrant master gain levels in a class with the rebuke undead ability, those levels stack with the effective cleric level of the master's Subjugate Undead ability. Add the Hit Dice limit of undead it can command using rebuke undead to the Hit Dice limit of its Subjugate Undead ability.

 

[freyar]

OK, that will work. I think I might write a separate ability for the minion just to be clear that it can't subjugate undead on its own:

Command Subjugated Undead (Su): A bone tyrant minion can command any undead that have been subjugated by its master. The bone tyrant master's orders take priority over its minions. To create a clear chain-of-command, A master can order subjugated undead to only accept commands from a particular bone tyrant minion who thereby becomes their "commanding officer".

Finally, let's fill in X and Y. The masters are 11HD, so we could just set X=11, but that almost feels too low since these are masters of undead control. Setting Y equal to that implied by the original adventure would be a rather large multiple (unless we really boost X), and I'm not sure I'm willing to go that high.

 

[Cleon]

OK, that will work. I think I might write a separate ability for the minion just to be clear that it can't subjugate undead on its own:

The minions are able to control undead on their own in the AD&D original, so ought to be able to Subjugate them too:

Control of undead can be done by the master itself or any of its minions. Only one need be in the presence of the undead being controlled for the modifier to be applied, but if none are in the same area as the undead, turn attempts may be made normally.

The abilities the Master has but its the minions don't are "telepathic link with its minions", "If the master is slain, any surviving minions are gated back to the Nine Hells", and "draw all undead within a 20 mile radius to its service" - the latter of which we are calling Marshall Undead.

Finally, let's fill in X and Y. The masters are 11HD, so we could just set X=11, but that almost feels too low since these are masters of undead control. Setting Y equal to that implied by the original adventure would be a rather large multiple (unless we really boost X), and I'm not sure I'm willing to go that high.

Yes, if we give it CL 11 it'll have to have a Y of 72 to meet the number of controlled minions.

Hmm, that's exactly 12 HD per CL per minion. That match seems too close to be coincidental, maybe we should tweak it to include the number of minions in the figures?

Do we want to allow it to have a huge number of subjugated undead like the original monster? The original adventure went to some effort to partition each minion's forces in a different crypt, so the PCs could destroy them piecemeal.

Hold on, I just checked the adventure and the six minions are divided between four Mausoleums, each containing 132 HD of "marshalled undead", not one minion per Mausoleum. So the total HD of the Undead Horde is 528, not 792.

That means a Y of 48 with X=11, so we could have Y = 12 (for the master alone) plus 6 (per minion) if we wanted to match the HD limit.