Converting First Edition Monsters

[Cleon]

This is a weirdish monster. I think that I'd rather keep the actual HD of the master fixed and use negative levels to enhance it per minion (or else use positive levels per minion missing as a penalty).

Yes, I thought that would be easier than recalculating the HD each time they lose a minion. Since the original monster was always summoned with a full complement of minions, it seems to make more sense starting them off at max HD and then having them gain positive levels as they lose minions.

Hmm, come to think of it does mean that an Advanced Bloody Bones has additional minions? We can worry about that when we get to it.

Also, if the masters are 8 ft tall and Large, wouldn't that make them pretty heavy?

Hey! You know the Master tries to watch his figure, but those souls of the damned are very fattening to a fleshless skeleton...

We could always make him taller. Say, 9 feet like an Osyluth.

Or maybe he's a minimum of 8 feet tall, and grows taller the more minions he has.

 

[freyar]

Growing with the number of minions is interesting.

But let's get back to basics. About all we know is that it's biggish and Very intelligent. Think a devourer is a good comparison for ability scores?

 

[Cleon]

Growing with the number of minions is interesting.

But let's get back to basics. About all we know is that it's biggish and Very intelligent. Think a devourer is a good comparison for ability scores?

Not really, I wouldn't think they'd be as strong as a Devourer's Str 28.

Maybe give them physical stats near a Bodak - namely Str 13, Dex 15 for Medium, which Advances to Str 21, Dex 13 for Large?

Swap 2 points of Dex for Str for the Master so they have the same Dex bonus as their minions?

Very Intelligent is 11-12 in AD&D, which isn't that smart, but they ought to have a good Charisma as they're leaders. The minions have "Normal" intelligence, which presumably means average (8-10). Let's say we give the Minions Int 10 and the same Wis and Cha as ghasts (since their HD are similar), and set the master's mental stats a bonus rank higher.

That's work out:

Master: Str 19, Dex 15, Con —, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 18
Minion: Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16

What thinks thee?

 

[freyar]

Hmmm, I didn't quite read the minions as controlling the other undead themselves but acting more as conduits for the master's control. What if we give them Wis 12 and Cha 14?

 

[Cleon]

Hmmm, I didn't quite read the minions as controlling the other undead themselves but acting more as conduits for the master's control. What if we give them Wis 12 and Cha 14?

Hmm, the "or" in "Control of undead can be done by the master itself or any of its minions" suggests they both can control undead, and the Minions don't need to be in the Master's presence.

Checking the adventure, the Minions start out scattered around the tomb, each in its own crypt with a platoon of undead under its command.

Here's the relevant passage from The Bane of Llywelyn:

The Bane of Llywelyn[/I]]The scenario features a new monster: the bloody bones. This evil team consists of a "master" that cannot leave its lair and telepathically linked "minions" that are highly mobile. For the most part, the minions stay in the secondary mausoleums and only marshal their forces against those who directly disturb them. They flee the round after they are wounded in melee, provided their undead forces have been largely neutralized. The master redistributes them such that each mausoleum has at least two. The excess return to room 10 for two turns, then are dispatched back to their mausoleums to rally any remaining undead. The master does not risk any of them unnecessarily, and tries to defeat the party with lesser undead if possible. In no case should you set up a mass assault on the party from all quarters in a tournament situation.

The Minions do seem to have an independent existence to the Master, since they are not destroyed if their Master is, but immediately pop back to Hell where they belong.

What practical difference would it make to the Minions if they're using their intrinsic power or that of the Master to control undead?

Do we just give them rebuke undead (meaning they have a limited no. of uses/day?) or make it a more potent long-term power? If we use rebuke undead and they're channeling their Master's power, wouldn't this cost the Master uses of rebuke?

Hmm, after reflection I think I'd go for an "at-will" rebuke-type power and allow the Minions to use the Master's rebuke modifier instead of their own if they're within a certain distance of the boss - maybe long range 400'+40'/HD or just a flat distance, such as 900 feet?

 

[freyar]

OK, I can go for at-will rebuking (maybe the Master gets at-will commanding?) and a boosted modifier in range of the Master. So I'll go with your proposed ability scores, but I might want to increase the difference between Master and Minion Cha depending on how we set the HD.

And I think we ought to settle that first. 3HD for the Minions is probably reasonable, but we need to decide if we're going to start with a 5HD Master and improve them based on Minions or else go with a higher-HD base and decrease them based on not having enough Minions. It seems like you were leaning toward the high-HD Master with positive levels for reduced Minion numbers. In that case, how about 11HD and somewhat improved abilities for the Master?

And we need a different name. Something that hints at their ability to control undead maybe?

 

[Cleon]

OK, I can go for at-will rebuking (maybe the Master gets at-will commanding?) and a boosted modifier in range of the Master. So I'll go with your proposed ability scores, but I might want to increase the difference between Master and Minion Cha depending on how we set the HD.

So if we increase the Charisma difference I assume you're after raising the Master's Cha rather than lowering the Minions.

And I think we ought to settle that first. 3HD for the Minions is probably reasonable, but we need to decide if we're going to start with a 5HD Master and improve them based on Minions or else go with a higher-HD base and decrease them based on not having enough Minions. It seems like you were leaning toward the high-HD Master with positive levels for reduced Minion numbers. In that case, how about 11HD and somewhat improved abilities for the Master?

I don't much mind either way, but thought you preferred the high-HD plus positive levels approach to the Master.

And we need a different name. Something that hints at their ability to control undead maybe?

Hmm, nothing immediately springs to mind.

Sanguine Skeleton? Bone Master? Gorebone Tyrant?

None of those seem quite right. I guess we'll just have to call them a Gorytyrant Bonelich.

I've got a pocket Irish dictionary around here somewhere. I could look up "Bloody" and "Bones" and cobble together something.

...hmm, best as I can make out bloody bones would be something like "fuilteach cnamha" in Irish. That doesn't have much of a devilish ring to it to me.

Maybe we should call it a "Bloody Bone Fiend" or something similar.

 

[freyar]

Bone Master and Bone Minion doesn't sound bad, actually.

Since the masters seem to start with plenty of minions, I guess I do want to have the base master at 11HD. Then we could bump the master Cha to 20 or 22. Cha 20 particularly seems to line up with fiends of similar HD, and, as you've noted, they have some outsider-like feel.

 

[Cleon]

Bone Master and Bone Minion doesn't sound bad, actually.

Since the masters seem to start with plenty of minions, I guess I do want to have the base master at 11HD. Then we could bump the master Cha to 20 or 22. Cha 20 particularly seems to line up with fiends of similar HD, and, as you've noted, they have some outsider-like feel.

Okay, that'll suit me. Since they're from the Nine Hells I reckon they should have something to reflect that. At the very least they ought to have the Extraplanar subtype, as they're summonable. So far we've got:

Bone Master: Large Undead (extraplanar), 11 HD, Str 19, Dex 15, Con —, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 20
Bone Minion: Medium Undead (extraplanar), ?? HD, Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16

You still fancy 3 Hit Dice for the Minions, right? I'm wondering whether that might be a little low, but I suppose we'd better leave them 3 HD for the time being, if only for consistency with the original.

What about Armour Class? The minions are AC 4 and the master is AC 2. If we translate that directly it'll give them AC 16 and 18, with +4 natural armour for the Minions and +7 natural armour for the master.

I wouldn't mind increasing that a bit, maybe to AC 18 for the Minions and 20-22 for the Master. We could increase their NA bonus or give them a Charisma-based deflection bonus on top of NA? Something like:

Bone Master: AC 22 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural, +5 deflection)
Bone Minion: AC 18 (+2 Dex, +3 natural, +3 deflection)

That's still lower than the AC 25 of a 3E Bone Devil.

 

[freyar]

I'll stick with 3HD for the minions, and I think I'd also keep the minions to AC 16. Maybe don't give the minions the deflection bonus. I'd just like to keep the separated in power level. It seems they should also get DR X/bludgeoning, like skeletons. Maybe DR 5 for the minions and 10 for the masters?