Converting monsters from Dragon magazine

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I'd be willing to add a note to the background text. Speaking of, it looks like we just need CR before we do the background/tactics. Oh, did you ever add in the last feats? I believe we settled on Augment Summoning, Epic Reflexes and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater dispel magic).

So, CR? I'm not thinking of any great comparisons at the moment, but CR 16 does seem about right.
 

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Cleon

Hero
I'd be willing to add a note to the background text.

That's agreed then.

Speaking of, it looks like we just need CR before we do the background/tactics.

So, CR? I'm not thinking of any great comparisons at the moment, but CR 16 does seem about right.

It seems in the right ballpark, although grampa turtle is sorely lacking in distance attacks. I did wonder whether CR 15 would be more appropriate.

Unfortunately, the three SRD creatures with CR 16 are all outsiders with lots of special abilities but few hit points compared to our Turtle, which makes the comparison very hard.

Hmm, let's compare him to the CR 12 Purple Worm - he's got similar bite & swallow methodology and can use plane shift and Size Reduction to sneak up to an opponent like a Worm uses burrow, giving him a way to get into melee reach. He's got 8 more HD and is much bigger, which is worth about +3 CR. He lacks the Purple Worm's nasty venomous stinger, but those SLAs and the Fortification and Dire saves more than make up for it.

Oh, and he can fly, which is handy (actually, near-essential) for a creature of that level.

Yeah, that sounds like CR 16 is OK for him. Let's use that unless someone has a better argument otherwise.

Oh, did you ever add in the last feats? I believe we settled on Augment Summoning, Epic Reflexes and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater dispel magic).

Strange, I thought I'd updated it but the Working Draft doesn't have those three feats.

Well it's not like it's the first time an update's mysteriously vanished.

Updating the Grandfather-Of-All-The-Turtles Working Draft.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
OK, we're all agreed, then.

Tactics: As a divine messenger, a grandfather-of-all-turtles usually confronts threats indirectly, through allied adventurers or perhaps with the use of control weather. In direct combat, a grandfather-of-all-turtles summons chelonian allies or attempts to swallow opponents whole.
 

Cleon

Hero
OK, we're all agreed, then.

Tactics: As a divine messenger, a grandfather-of-all-turtles usually confronts threats indirectly, through allied adventurers or perhaps with the use of control weather. In direct combat, a grandfather-of-all-turtles summons chelonian allies or attempts to swallow opponents whole.

I'd rather not mention the "divine messenger" bit in the tactics.

How about this...

A grandfather-of-all-the-turtles is a legendary reptile that some cultures considered a sacred beast. They live in both fresh and salt water, unlike the purely marine father-of-all-the-turtles. Grandfathers-of-all-the-turtles can fly and travel the planes at will, so one may appear in any lake or sea, or even a small pond. These turtles can eat the same aquatic plants and animals as normal giant turtles but prefer to obtain their food magically via their heroes' feast spell-like ability.

Folklore says this mysterious creature is either the avatar of a "Turtle God" or a father-of-all-the-turtles of such vast wisdom it transcended its animal origins. What is certain is grandfathers-of-all-the-turtles sometimes serve as intermediaries between Material Plane people and divine beings such as deities or dragon rulers. Some other grandfather-of-all-the-turtles serve as guardians of aquatic life, particularly turtles.

When not performing some task for nature or the gods, most grandfathers-of-all-the-turtles are extremely shy and furtive. They avoid interacting with humanoids but may watch them secretly, either by shrinking to Diminutive size and hiding or plane shifting to observe from the Ethereal Plane.

Grandfathers-of-all-the-turtles do not value treasure, but do occasionally have treasure given to them by a divine patron to deliver to a chosen mortal (or protect until a worthy owner appears). Such divine treasures are often powerful magic items or even artifacts, and some have served as the foundation relic of a dynasty or religion. The turtle may return to retrieve its patron's gift once the treasure's time on earth is done.

There are reports that some of these creatures possess additional powers. Known examples include breath weapons, transporting incredible loads (in one case, flying while carrying a small island), producing earthquakes, regeneration, the ability to grant wishes to small children, having alternate forms (usually a normal-sized humanoid or an enormous tortle), or the power to store and retrieve items from an extradimensional "strongbox". A grandfather-of-all-the-turtles with a divine patron may by temporarily endowed with a power to fulfill a task or duty, but most such powers are innate abilities.

A grandfather-of-all-the-turtles typically measures from 40 to 60 feet from snout to tail, with a shell from 30 to 50 feet in diameter, and weighs 120 tons or more. The oldest individuals grow to length of 100 feet or more.

Can these things speak? If so, what languages do they have?

COMBAT
Grandfathers-of-all-the-turtles normally only fight if the situation is vital; they would rather fly, swim, or plane shift away from threats. Given time, they use control weather and summon chelonians to gather allies and change the environment in their favor.

A grandfather-of-all-the-turtle's battle tactics are pretty straightforward. It uses change size, flight and/or plane shift to get within melee range of their opponents then attack with its bite. Smaller opponents may be swallowed whole, but only if the turtle judges them too weak to injure it internally. Enemy spellcasters will be countered by greater dispel magic (quickened when necessary).

Grandfathers-of-all-the-turtles routinely apply their arcane sight, heroes' feast, true seeing and water breathing spell-like abilities to themselves. Remember the heroes' feast grants them 1d8+10 temporary hit points, immunity to poison and fear effects, and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and Will saves.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I like that!

I think I'd let them speak Aquan, probably Common, and maybe something like Draconic. I was thinking about Celestial, but that doesn't befit their Neutral nature.
 

Cleon

Hero
I like that!

I think I'd let them speak Aquan, probably Common, and maybe something like Draconic. I was thinking about Celestial, but that doesn't befit their Neutral nature.

Definitely Draconic. The oceans are the homes of the Dragon Emperors in some Asian myths, after all.

I'm fine giving them Celestial. There are myths about giant turtles helping nice folk and acting as "messengers for heaven", so it'd help if they talked the same language as the message-givers.

Maybe Sylvan as well?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
How about Aquan, Celestial, Draconic, and Sylvan? We could perhaps list Aquan and Sylvan as options for more intelligent Granddaddy Turtles.
 

Cleon

Hero


Cleon

Hero
Looks good! Maybe done even...

I just need to remove the red question mark after the languages and I think it's done, although I'll do a quick eyeball check for typos and math errors.

Updating the Grandfather-Of-All-The-Turtles Working Draft.

I've updated the conversion list and the "batches to come" outline.

Are we going to add the father and grandfather turtles to the CC as separate entries? If so, it'd mean we have 11 Sea Monsters, or one more than will fit in a standard batch of 10.

I feel the simplest way around the problem is to fold the Many-Finned and Many-Humped Sea Serpents into one entry, since they've got pretty much the same stats and are both supposedly "serpent whales" à la Basilosaurus.

Do you have any preferences for which Sea Monster we do next? If not, I'd just go for the next one alphabetically - the Great Orm.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Go for the Great Orm next, sure.

We could either fold the two sea serpents together or save Grandfather Turtle for a later "epic" or mystical type batch. I'm not sure if you have ideas for future batches.
 

Cleon

Hero
Go for the Great Orm next, sure.

Fine by my. I'll present the original stats in my next post.

We could either fold the two sea serpents together or save Grandfather Turtle for a later "epic" or mystical type batch. I'm not sure if you have ideas for future batches.

I'm leaning towards folding the two Sea Serpents together, since the only difference in the original stats was the Many-Finned had a higher AC and lower Swim speed.

As for future batches, I hadn't got anything laid out beyond those outlined in my "batches to come" post.
 

Cleon

Hero
Great Orm original stats

Great orm: In July 1966, an oddly-shaped prehistoric worm was described to the scientific community. Tullimonstreum gregarium was only a few inches long (a school of them, possibly young ones, had been buried in a cloud of sediment and preserved that way), but it looked for all the world like a miniature plesiosaur. It had a small but distinct head (unusual for worms), a slender, swanlike neck, a torpedo-shaped body with a pair of paddle-like flippers up front, and a tail that looks like an ace of spades. In an amazing example of convergent evolution, this worm from the Carboniferous period came to look like a plesiosaur, and undoubtedly lived like one. In his book, The Great Orm of Loch Ness, F. W. Holiday stated his opinion that Nessie and sea serpents in general are giant forms of Tullimonstreum.

Holiday gives a number of good reasons for his theory. The loch has been checked by sonar a number of times, sometimes showing creatures, sometimes not. If the creatures in the loch were lying, wormlike, on the bottom, the sonar would not distinguish them as separate objects. Also, an aquatic worm would mainly breathe through gills, so it would not have to surface for air, explaining why more sightings are not made. In his second book on this subject, The Dragon and the Disc, he mentions a case from the past where an “orm” came ashore, got itself wedged in a crevice or something, and died. The awed locals reported that it “melted away” without leaving any traces behind. Since worms are soft-bodied, shell-less invertebrates, they would leave no bones or other remains behind once their flesh had rotted away.

Another bit of evidence is the fact that close views of Nessie instill far more revulsion in people than would seem to be warranted by a good look at a plesiosaur, long-necked seal, etc. One witness actually described the body as “wormy; creepy. The entire body had movement all over it all the time.” Echoing these sentiments was a woman who actually took two photographs of a similar beast in a different loch. She said she would not like to see the animal again because she did not like the way it moved when it swam. The two photos showed a head that merged imperceptibly into the neck (no eyes or other features were visible), and a body that changed shape as it swam. Another witness said the “obscene” thing reminded him of a giant stomach with a long, writhing gut attached. Charming! In an early sighting after the Loch Ness fracas began, a Mr. and Mrs. Spicer saw the thing flop across a road and plunge into the loch. They said that more than anything else, it looked like a giant slug. There are many descriptions of these lake monsters leaving trails of slime behind them when they come out on land. Whatever game system you use, don’t be surprised if your NPC hirelings, colleagues, or whatever take to their heels at the first sight of the thing.

Use the Elasmosaurus stats from MC3 with the following modifications: ACTIVITY CYCLE Any; HD 20; THAC0 5; DAMAGE/ATTACK 3-30; SPECIAL DEFENSES Poisonous secretions from its warty flesh (save vs. poison at -1 if you touch it with bare flesh, or die); SIZE G (100’); XP Value 14,000.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Well, the SRD elasmosaurus might be a place to start, though I notice a big HD disparity between that (10HD) and the great orm. And there's a size difference. What do you think about advancing an elasmosaurus to Gargantuan and starting from there?
 

Cleon

Hero
Well, the SRD elasmosaurus might be a place to start, though I notice a big HD disparity between that (10HD) and the great orm. And there's a size difference. What do you think about advancing an elasmosaurus to Gargantuan and starting from there?

Yes, I did notice that the AD&D Great Orm has 20 HD to the 10 HD of the basic 3E Elasmosaurus, so it makes sense to advance the latter from Huge to Gargantuan. The AD&D Elasmosaurus has 15 HD, incidentally.

Furthermore, the Great Orm is 100 feet long, while the AD&D Elasmosaurus is 50 feet and the 3E version is 30 feet, which also suggests the former is one size category bigger than the latter.

Well I guess I should start up a Working Draft using a 20 HD Gargantuan elasmosaurus as a foundation.
 



Cleon

Hero
Great Orm Working Draft

Great Orm
Gargantuan Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 20d8+160 (250 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 square), swim 50 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+39
Attack: Bite +23 melee (3d8+18)
Full Attack: Bite +23 melee (3d8+18)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Frightful presence, poison
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, vermin traits, water dependent
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +8, Will +7
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 14, Con 26, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 7
Skills: +20
Feats:
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 21-30 HD (Gargantuan), 31-60 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment:

A titanic worm longer than many ships. Its loathsome body writhes bonelessly within a coat of vile slime. Periodically, its back bunches up into a line of rubbery humps the shape and size of capsized rowboats.

Great orms are gargantuan aquatic worms. They live in both fresh and salt water and are even able to make short forays onto land, usually to travel from one body of water to another. Many, if not most, great orms dwell in the depths of the ocean, but humanoids are only likely to see orms that inhabit coastal regions or freshwater, since they are most likely to be seen on the surface. Sightings of great orms are the cause of many legends about a lake or loch being home to a "loathly wyrm" or "monster snake".

Great orms also live in subterranean water systems or use them to travel about. Some surprisingly small pools have a resident great orm. These are invariably very deep sinkholes that connect to an underground river or sea.

The body of a great orm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds.

Combat
A great orm acts purely on instinct. A hungry great orm will try to bite anything it recognizes as a meal. They will attack opponents that injure them, but rely on their venomous slime as their first line of defense.

Frightful Presence (Ex): A great orm can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the great orm attacks, charges, or suddenly appears. Creatures within a radius of 180 feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the orm. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 18 Will save remains immune to that great orm’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Poison (Ex): Any creature that grapples a great orm or hits it with a natural weapon is exposed to its poison.

Venomous Slime: Contact, Fortitude DC 28, initial damage 1d12 Con, secondary damage 1d12 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Water Dependent (Ex): Great orms can survive out of the water for 5 minutes per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).

Skills: A great orm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #190 (1993).
 
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Cleon

Hero
Great Orm

Okay, the above is basically just an enlarged Elasmosaurus with a Poison special attack pencilled in and the dimension cribbed from the SRD Purple Worm.

So how do you want to tweak it?

Firstly, do we want to keep the Animal type or change it to Vermin (which seems more appropriate for a giant worm)?

Secondly, are there any changes you'd like to the ability scores?

I'm thinking we ought to reduce the Intelligence to either 0 or 1 since, (a) it's a worm, and (b) the AD&D Plesiosaurus has Int 0 and the AD&D Elasmosaurus has Int 1.

Thirdly, how about giving it some kind of "Revolting Appearance" special ability, since the description goes to great length about how loathsome it looks.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I could go for a giant Vermin, which would make it Int -. Nessie should definitely get good Hide skills, too.

I think I'd go Str -2, Dex +4, Int -, Cha -4 for the abilities.

You read my mind about the "Revolting Appearance" ability. We could model it on Frightful Presence but acting on the sickened/nauseated scale, rather than fear.
 

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