Converting monsters from Dragon magazine

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
A full-round action doesn't usually last outside your turn, I thought (ie, there's a difference between a full-round action and an action that takes a round). So shouldn't any attacks against the super eel be an AoO?

I think I'd prefer the DC to be replaced by the check, with crew members aiding the captain's check. Having the combination just seems too fiddly. So either this:

Crush Ship (Ex): As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a super eel can wrap its serpentine body around a ship up to half the eel's length (i.e. a 30 ft. ship for a 60 ft. eel) and squeeze with devastating pressure. This attack deals 2d6+16 points of damage and breaches the ship's hull if the super eel succeeds at a Strength check, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 rounds. The break DC varies with the type of vessel crushed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. The vessel's captain can counteract the attack by making a Profession (sailing) check (which can be aided by the crew); if the check is higher than the break DC listed above, it replaces the DC. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships).

or

Crush Ship (Ex): Over one full round, a super eel can wrap its serpentine body around a ship up to half the eel's length (i.e. a 30 ft. ship for a 60 ft. eel) and squeeze with devastating pressure. This attack deals 2d6+16 points of damage and breaches the ship's hull if the super eel succeeds at a Strength check, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 rounds. The break DC varies with the type of vessel crushed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. The vessel's captain can counteract the attack by making a Profession (sailing) check (which can be aided by the crew); if the check is higher than the break DC listed above, it replaces the DC. In addition, any crew that do not make Profession (sailing) checks may attack the super eel during the round that it crushes the ship. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships).
 

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Cleon

Legend
A full-round action doesn't usually last outside your turn, I thought (ie, there's a difference between a full-round action and an action that takes a round). So shouldn't any attacks against the super eel be an AoO?

Good point.

In that case I prefer a "1 full round" action.

The problem with the "The vessel's captain can counteract the attack by making a Profession (sailing) check (which can be aided by the crew)" is that:

(a) a ship would surely need a whole crew acting together to move the ship and/or brace the hull to resist crushing, I doubt a captain acting alone would be enough unless it's a tiny vessel that can be operated by a single person.
(b) Going by RAW, the captain would get a +2 for every crew member using Aid Another to help him. A keelboat, for example, has a minimum crew of eight, for a +16 bonus, meaning the Profession (sailor) check result will probably be 30+ even if the Captain only has a few ranks in the skill. A sailing ship (minimum crew 20) for a +40 on the roll!

I suppose we could place an upper limit to number of crew that can aid the check, but that would raise problems of its own.

I like my solution better:

Crush Ship (Ex): As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a super eel can wrap its serpentine body around a ship up to half the eel's length (i.e. a 30 ft. ship for a 60 ft. eel) and squeeze with devastating pressure. This attack deals 2d6+16 points of damage and breaches the ship's hull if the super eel succeeds at a Strength check, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 rounds. The break DC varies with the type of vessel crushed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. A vessel's crew can counteract a super eel's Crush Ship attack if the captain succeeds on a DC 20 Professional (sailor) check; this increases the Crush DC of their ship by +2 or to the result of the Profession (sailor) check, whichever is better. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships).
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Profession (sailing) checks are made by the captain under most ship rules I've seen, which is why I went for the captain rather than the whole crew. But as you've written it, the crew isn't prohibited from aiding the captain --- aid another is something any character present can do to increase the skill check of any other character. So the captain can still get +2 per crew member. In that case, I think you either have to spell out that for some reason it's not aid-able. Or else we should limit the effect of the check to increasing the crush DC by +2 (or some other value).

I also really don't like the fiddliness of +2 to DC or replacing the DC. Too confusing.

Finally, if it's a full-round action that occurs on the eel's turn, I think we need to turn the Profession check into an immediate action. Right?
 

Cleon

Legend
Profession (sailing) checks are made by the captain under most ship rules I've seen, which is why I went for the captain rather than the whole crew. But as you've written it, the crew isn't prohibited from aiding the captain --- aid another is something any character present can do to increase the skill check of any other character. So the captain can still get +2 per crew member. In that case, I think you either have to spell out that for some reason it's not aid-able. Or else we should limit the effect of the check to increasing the crush DC by +2 (or some other value).

No, as I read it the crew members are already performing an action by resisting the Crush Attack, so they can't simultaneously spend an action to Aid Another.

Just cutting out your "which can be aided by the crew" bit of text removes the bulk of the problem.

I also really don't like the fiddliness of +2 to DC or replacing the DC. Too confusing.

I don't find it confusing at all. :cool:

Finally, if it's a full-round action that occurs on the eel's turn, I think we need to turn the Profession check into an immediate action. Right?

No, it does not need to be an immediate action.

If it's a full round action, the crew (and everyone else) can make standard actions before the eel's Crush Ship takes effect.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
No, as I read it the crew members are already performing an action by resisting the Crush Attack, so they can't simultaneously spend an action to Aid Another.

Just cutting out your "which can be aided by the crew" bit of text removes the bulk of the problem.

How is it that the crew is performing an action if it is the captain making the check? If you don't want the the crew to be able to assist, it should be something like:

"A ship's captain can counteract a super eel's Crush Ship attack by making a successful DC 20 Professional (sailor) check to direct the crew (the crew cannot make Aid Another actions, as they are involved in resisting the attack)."

I don't find it confusing at all. :cool:

Well, I don't either, but I sense from complaints about "too much math" that some people might. Plus, it's fiddly. And precedent is to do one or the other, usually the "replace the DC with the check result" option. I'd much rather just stick with that.


No, it does not need to be an immediate action.

If it's a full round action, the crew (and everyone else) can make standard actions before the eel's Crush Ship takes effect.

Actually, no. It need to be "1 full round," not a full-round action. In combat, "[a] full-round action consumes all your effort during a round" (quoting the SRD). It ends within your turn. The captain can't make a check during the super eel's turn unless the check is an immediate action. On the other hand, did you want the crush attack to take "1 full round"?
 

Cleon

Legend
How is it that the crew is performing an action if it is the captain making the check? If you don't want the the crew to be able to assist, it should be something like:

"A ship's captain can counteract a super eel's Crush Ship attack by making a successful DC 20 Professional (sailor) check to direct the crew (the crew cannot make Aid Another actions, as they are involved in resisting the attack)."

There are plenty of occasions were a group of creatures perform an action and only one of them makes the check - ritual casting, for example.

Anyhow, I'm OK incorporating that change.

Well, I don't either, but I sense from complaints about "too much math" that some people might. Plus, it's fiddly. And precedent is to do one or the other, usually the "replace the DC with the check result" option. I'd much rather just stick with that.

I don't care for it, since it makes it very hard for a ship's crew to make any difference if they're in a "tough-to-crack" vessel.

Actually, no. It need to be "1 full round," not a full-round action. In combat, "[a] full-round action consumes all your effort during a round" (quoting the SRD). It ends within your turn. The captain can't make a check during the super eel's turn unless the check is an immediate action. On the other hand, did you want the crush attack to take "1 full round"?

Yes, I meant "1 full round", it just keeps on coming out "full-round action".

So, we're talking something like:

Crush Ship (Ex): As a 1 full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a super eel can wrap its serpentine body around a ship up to half the eel's length (i.e. a 30 ft. ship for a 60 ft. eel) and squeeze with devastating pressure. This attack deals 2d6+16 points of damage and breaches the ship's hull if the super eel succeeds at a Strength check, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 rounds. The break DC varies with the type of vessel crushed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. A vessel's crew can counteract a super eel's Crush Ship attack if the captain succeeds on a DC 20 Professional (sailor) check; this increases the Crush DC of their ship by +2 or to the result of the Profession (sailor) check, whichever is better. The ship's crew cannot make Aid Another actions to assist their captain, as they are involved in resisting the attack. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships).
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
How about going with just "increases the Crush DC of their ship by +2"? I really dislike the fiddliness of both options. I could also note that the captain of a tougher ship is more likely to have more ranks, too.
 

Cleon

Legend
How about going with just "increases the Crush DC of their ship by +2"? I really dislike the fiddliness of both options. I could also note that the captain of a tougher ship is more likely to have more ranks, too.

Well if you're dead set on restricting it to one or t'other I'd rather make it the DC 20/+2 option.

I still prefer the "not all that fiddly" version, though. :cool:

Also, the "As a 1 full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity" seems clumsy to me

How about starting the description with "A super eel can wrap its serpentine body around a ship up to half the eel's length (i.e. a 30 ft. ship for a 60 ft. eel) and squeeze with devastating pressure. This action takes 1 full round and provokes attacks of opportunity."?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
DC 20 for +2 to the crush DC it is, then. That'll leave you something for your Cleon Special[TM]. ;)

I will certainly agree to the new wording about how long the crush takes.
 

Cleon

Legend
DC 20 for +2 to the crush DC it is, then. That'll leave you something for your Cleon Special[TM]. ;)

I will certainly agree to the new wording about how long the crush takes.

So we're both agreed on the following, then:

Crush Ship (Ex): A super eel can wrap its serpentine body around a ship up to half the eel's length (i.e. a 30 ft. ship for a 60 ft. eel) and squeeze with devastating pressure. This action takes 1 full round and provokes attacks of opportunity. This attack deals 2d6+16 points of damage and breaches the ship's hull if the super eel succeeds at a Strength check, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 rounds. The break DC varies with the type of vessel crushed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. A vessel's crew can counteract a super eel's Crush Ship attack if the captain succeeds on a DC 20 Professional (sailor) check; this increases the Crush DC of their ship by +2. The ship's crew cannot make Aid Another actions to assist their captain, as they are involved in resisting the attack. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships).
 

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