Converting monsters from the second edition Monstrous Compendiums

[Shade]

I'd say it should do one point of splash damage.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

cool. any opinions on ability scores? it's a non-intelligent plant, first off. since the main plant doesn't move, we were considering no Dex score. the Con, IMO, should be hefty, so at least 20 and possibly quite a bit higher. the Str may not be a major factor, so it should be less than the Con - just enough to give the bite some extra punch to make sure it does its job; the grapple bonus from size should ensure that a pod denizen remains attached and then the rest of the damage is blood drain.

 

[Shade]

cool. any opinions on ability scores? it's a non-intelligent plant, first off. since the main plant doesn't move, we were considering no Dex score. the Con, IMO, should be hefty, so at least 20 and possibly quite a bit higher. the Str may not be a major factor, so it should be less than the Con - just enough to give the bite some extra punch to make sure it does its job; the grapple bonus from size should ensure that a pod denizen remains attached and then the rest of the damage is blood drain.

I think it should have a Dex score (at least for the pod denizens). Actually, I wouldn't mind giving the whole thing a movement of 5 ft. like the assassin vine (or 10 ft. like greenvise).

Here are the stats of other big plants:

Assassin Vine (L): Str 20, Dex 10, Con 16, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 9
Shambling Mound (L): Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 9
Tendriculos (H): Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3
Vine Horror (M): Str 18, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 10
Octopus Tree (H): Str 30, Dex 3, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 15
Greenvise (H): Str 29, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 6
Red Sundew (H): Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

i can't see the plant moving around, being that it's firmly rooted and always described as immobile, but severed pod denizens would be able to get around until they too take root. i could see giving the 'sipper a Dex score, but no more than 10 if we do.

i'll consider the rest of those scores later, and welcome input from anyone else reading the thread in the meantime.

 

[Tzeentch]

The text is unclear exactly how many denizens it has on an encounter ("up to 12"). Just standardize on 12 for the writeup perhaps, it simplifies matters.

It strikes me that it might be simpler to say that it has a number of tendril attacks equal to the number of denizens and that destroying a tendril causes one to detach from the tree as an independent creature - removing any wording about denizens from the main combat text involving the tendrils (Which is convoluted enough). Since you're treating the denizens as part of the main body until special conditions are reached it is just confusing to keep referring to them as independent entities. Really, anything that cleans up the very clunky tendril/denizen wording is a big improvement. You could thus probably ditch the stuff about them being Medium size and such except in a section where you describe them as independent actors (sort of like how the Orcwort in MM2 works). So maybe something like:

BLOODSIPPER
Full Attack: 12 tethers +X melee (1d8+X and blood drain)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Blood Drain, Improved Grab, Release Denizen

COMBAT
XX
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a bloodsipper must hit a creature at least one size smaller than itself with its tether attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to blood drain the opponent in the following round.

A tether has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a bloodsipper’s tether provokes an attack of opportunity. Severing a tether deals 5 damage to the bloodsipper and releases a pod denizen (see below). The creature regrows severed tethers and pods in 1d10+10 days.

Release Denizen (Ex): As a move action the bloodsipper can sacrifice a tether to automatically release a pod denizen. Once all of its tethers are separated or destroyed the bloodsipper can no longer attack.

(Similar to the roper wording but harder to sunder when attached and attacking them provokes an AoO). Simplified like this does it really need all that text about AOEs and special sunder stuff?)

(Hmm, wonder if ranged touch would be appropriate for the tethers ....)

As for stats, the following seem like good comparisons as far as attack modes and size/capabilities:
Greenvise (Huge): Str 29, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 6
Orcwort (Colossal): Str 39, Dex 7, Con 29 Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Tendriculos (Huge): Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3

Since its not noted as being intelligent in any way perhaps:
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 9, Con 35, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3
(I note the other conversions give the pods low ST and that may be appropriate here as well, ST 19 would be plenty appropriate I think since the tethers originate from smaller "sub monsters" so to speak).

I don't mean to step on toes, I'm just worried about the seemingly excessive rules given to handle the pods and sundering the tethers. The pods are just a special effect of killing tethers or plant action so thats how I suggested it here, stealing liberally from the Roper wording with modifications based on the comments here.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

The text is unclear exactly how many denizens it has on an encounter ("up to 12"). Just standardize on 12 for the writeup perhaps, it simplifies matters.

yeah, that's what i'm going to do. hopefully the text will be pretty clear that it can have less than 12 though.

It strikes me that it might be simpler to say that it has a number of tendril attacks equal to the number of denizens and that destroying a tendril causes one to detach from the tree as an independent creature - removing any wording about denizens from the main combat text involving the tendrils (Which is convoluted enough). Since you're treating the denizens as part of the main body until special conditions are reached it is just confusing to keep referring to them as independent entities. Really, anything that cleans up the very clunky tendril/denizen wording is a big improvement. You could thus probably ditch the stuff about them being Medium size and such except in a section where you describe them as independent actors (sort of like how the Orcwort in MM2 works). So maybe something like:

one problem with the orcwort comparison is that the orcwort doesn't use its wortlings before they separate from the main plant, unlike the bloodsipper and its pod denizens. i'll grant you that the combat text is a bit convoluted though, and i want to fix it, so i'll take your suggestions into consideration. i wouldn't want to change it to a tendril/tether attack, since it is very much a bite attack, with the accompanying blood drain. oh, shade?

As for stats, the following seem like good comparisons as far as attack modes and size/capabilities:
Greenvise (Huge): Str 29, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 6
Orcwort (Colossal): Str 39, Dex 7, Con 29 Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Tendriculos (Huge): Str 28, Dex 9, Con 22, Int 3, Wis 8, Cha 3

Since its not noted as being intelligent in any way perhaps:
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 9, Con 35, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3
(I note the other conversions give the pods low ST and that may be appropriate here as well, ST 19 would be plenty appropriate I think since the tethers originate from smaller "sub monsters" so to speak).

like i was suggesting above, despite being a Colossal creature, this one is hardly a brute, so a Str lower than the Con is what i was thinking. giving it 19 Str probably works better in this case than 30. otherwise, i'm fine with your ability score suggestions. oh, shade?

I don't mean to step on toes, I'm just worried about the seemingly excessive rules given to handle the pods and sundering the tethers. The pods are just a special effect of killing tethers or plant action so thats how I suggested it here, stealing liberally from the Roper wording with modifications based on the comments here.

like i said, we're far from done, so suggestions are helpful. i'll try to clear my mind and think it through some more.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

oh, also, for the attach/blood drain sequence, i was thinking these guys might work mechanically something along the lines of the anguillian from Stormwrack - since there's a precedent, and it works, i'd like to keep that part as is. it really seems to be more like that anyway, than an actual grapple - the differences may be subtle, but they are important.

 

[Shade]

yeah, that's what i'm going to do. hopefully the text will be pretty clear that it can have less than 12 though.

That's the way to go. Just like an octopus has eight arms by default, but could have lost a few and not regrown them.

one problem with the orcwort comparison is that the orcwort doesn't use its wortlings before they separate from the main plant, unlike the bloodsipper and its pod denizens. i'll grant you that the combat text is a bit convoluted though, and i want to fix it, so i'll take your suggestions into consideration. i wouldn't want to change it to a tendril/tether attack, since it is very much a bite attack, with the accompanying blood drain. oh, shade?

I agree that it needs to remain a bite attack.

like i was suggesting above, despite being a Colossal creature, this one is hardly a brute, so a Str lower than the Con is what i was thinking. giving it 19 Str probably works better in this case than 30. otherwise, i'm fine with your ability score suggestions. oh, shade?

Sure, I can get onboard with Str 19, Dex 9, Con 35, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3. Its Str is lower than most Colossal beings because the extremities aren't attacking with the full force of a creature of that size, rather with tinier mouths.

oh, also, for the attach/blood drain sequence, i was thinking these guys might work mechanically something along the lines of the anguillian from Stormwrack - since there's a precedent, and it works, i'd like to keep that part as is. it really seems to be more like that anyway, than an actual grapple - the differences may be subtle, but they are important.

That should work.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

Sure, I can get onboard with Str 19, Dex 9, Con 35, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 3. Its Str is lower than most Colossal beings because the extremities aren't attacking with the full force of a creature of that size, rather with tinier mouths.

exactly. i'd be willing to go a bit higher than 19 (it's only got a +11 attack bonus, but it's grapple check is +35) if you like, but not more than 30 i think. i'm fine with leaving it as-is though, so either way.

with a Dex of 9, and its size mod, that brings us down to AC 1. to get even the rough equivalent of what it had in 2E, it would need a minimum of +18 natural armor.

the main plant has 330 hp - so i wouldn't mind raising the damage to the bloodsipper for severing a tether back up to 10... it can take it.


i'm going to examine the combat text when i get a chance (who knows when that will be!) to see if there is a good way to simplify it that i like. in the meantime, feel free to continue discussion.

 

[Shade]

exactly. i'd be willing to go a bit higher than 19 (it's only got a +11 attack bonus, but it's grapple check is +35) if you like, but not more than 30 i think. i'm fine with leaving it as-is though, so either way.

I'm fine either way as well.

with a Dex of 9, and its size mod, that brings us down to AC 1. to get even the rough equivalent of what it had in 2E, it would need a minimum of +18 natural armor.

The ironmaw has a +18 bonus, and the octopus tree has an even higher bonus, so I don't see that as problematic.

the main plant has 330 hp - so i wouldn't mind raising the damage to the bloodsipper for severing a tether back up to 10... it can take it.

Cool.