Converting Planescape monsters

[Dostovie]

Though the abilities of many of the quasis runs contrary to the RAW definitions of the elemental subtypes, I think it is far more important for style and thematic reasons to keep the respective subtypes with each type of quasi (ash/fire, vacuum/air, etc.). It should be easy enough to simply put in a line or two of where the contradictions in each creature lie. For instance...

Fire vulnerability: Unlike most creatures with the Fire subtype, ash quasi-elementals are vulnerable to fire.

Though this seems to disregard the rules, I think it is a good policy to assume that a creature's individual description supersedes that of its type and subtype. Just pretend there's a "unless stated otherwise" on all the subtype descriptions
I just think the elemental associations inherent in these creatures' descriptions and origins are too important to ignore.

 

[Cleon]

Though the abilities of many of the quasis runs contrary to the RAW definitions of the elemental subtypes, I think it is far more important for style and thematic reasons to keep the respective subtypes with each type of quasi (ash/fire, vacuum/air, etc.). It should be easy enough to simply put in a line or two of where the contradictions in each creature lie. For instance...

Fire vulnerability: Unlike most creatures with the Fire subtype, ash quasi-elementals are vulnerable to fire.

Though this seems to disregard the rules, I think it is a good policy to assume that a creature's individual description supersedes that of its type and subtype. Just pretend there's a "unless stated otherwise" on all the subtype descriptions

I just think the elemental associations inherent in these creatures' descriptions and origins are too important to ignore.

Well I don't mind giving them the straight elemental Subtypes in principle, but it would seem out to have a Fire creature with vulnerability to fire. You'd have to persuade Freyar though. The main thing is to agree on the types before we get too far in the conversion.

I'm thinking we'll be giving each Quasi-Elemental "Subtype" a set of traits in any case, so we rather than Fire & Fire Vulnerability we could leaving them Subtype-less and give them something like:

Quasi-Fire Elemental: Any ability that has a special effect upon a creature with the Fire subtype affects an ash quasi-elemental as if it was a fire creature.

 

[freyar]

Well, the problem is that there are possibly 2 or 0 reasonably associated subtypes.

I prefer the "Quasi-Fire Elemental" SQ that Cleon proposes (make it Ex).

 

[Dostovie]

Well, the problem is that there are possibly 2 or 0 reasonably associated subtypes.

I don't believe that to be true. The creature descriptions, and indeed the descriptions of the planes themselves, indicate a single associated subtype:
Ash/fire, Dust/earth, Salt/water, Vacuum/air
Lightning/air, Mineral/earth, Radiance/fire, Steam/water

I understand that the abilities of the quasis differ from the normally indicated abilities of elementals with analogous subtypes, and would even suggest different associations, but if you look at the paraelementals you'll see a precedent. The Ice para has the Air subtype, yet no fly speed; and the Smoke para has the Fire subtype, yet neither of its associated abilities. It would appear, therefore, that the subtypes on these creatures were included not for what they do, but for what they mean.
I think the abilities of the creature should supersede the subtypes.

Granted, Cleon's suggestion does fix the problems as far as interactions with the quasis, but I would hate to compile a list of Fire elementals and overlook the Ash simply because it was an odd duck.

 

[Cleon]

I don't believe that to be true. The creature descriptions, and indeed the descriptions of the planes themselves, indicate a single associated subtype:
Ash/fire, Dust/earth, Salt/water, Vacuum/air
Lightning/air, Mineral/earth, Radiance/fire, Steam/water

I understand that the abilities of the quasis differ from the normally indicated abilities of elementals with analogous subtypes, and would even suggest different associations, but if you look at the paraelementals you'll see a precedent. The Ice para has the Air subtype, yet no fly speed; and the Smoke para has the Fire subtype, yet neither of its associated abilities. It would appear, therefore, that the subtypes on these creatures were included not for what they do, but for what they mean.

Well if we followed the original Para-Elemental planes an Ice Paraelemental should be Air/Water with no Cold subtype. It is also makes very little sense to me that an Ice Elemental doesn't include the Water Subtype.

I think the abilities of the creature should supersede the subtypes.

If the abilities come first, that's an argument for not giving them an Subtype they don't have the traits of, surely?

Granted, Cleon's suggestion does fix the problems as far as interactions with the quasis, but I would hate to compile a list of Fire elementals and overlook the Ash simply because it was an odd duck.

You can make whatever lists you like. That's what I do when the gang here disagrees with my ideas!

 

[freyar]

The way I read subtypes has to do more with characteristics (abilities), to be honest. It is a bit tricky, since the "genetics" of the planes should seem to come into play, but it does seem a bit ridiculous to give a critter a bunch of abilities via a subtype and then overwrite all of them explicitly. And, even if you look at the original quasi-elementals, ash is associated with the plane of fire (for example), but the negative energy plane connection more or less seems to reverse the associated subtype.

As for the para-elementals, if I may be blunt, a "wrong" previous monster design shouldn't influence us too much here.

And back to the quasis: I'd think it's fine to "count" the ash quasi as a fire elemental. But that nomenclature doesn't have to do with the rule elements of the fire subtype.

Anyway, are we ready to get down to the abilities?

 

[Oryan77]

I hesitate to ask this, but what happened to the Quasielementals?

I wanted to compare the Living Ash's original monster (the "Ash Elemental") to the Ash Quasielemental and the only 3E Quasielementals stats I could find is the 3.0 Lightning Quasielemental in the Creature Catalog.

Echohawk's index says the Quasielementals had unofficial 3E stats in the Planewalker website, but those seem to have disappeared.

The Paraelementals have official 3E stats, but where are the Quasis?

Should we convert them?

All of the 3.5 quasielementals exist in Denizens of the Inner Planes pdf on the Planewalker website. I have a copy of it if you are unable to find it.

Several PS monsters are also converted to 3.5 in the Planewalker Denizens of the Transitive Planes pdf file (which I also have a copy of).

 

[Cleon]

And back to the quasis: I'd think it's fine to "count" the ash quasi as a fire elemental. But that nomenclature doesn't have to do with the rule elements of the fire subtype.

Anyway, are we ready to get down to the abilities?

I'm happy to proceed without any elemental Subtypes.

We can just use a "Quasi-Fire" SQ to provide the Ash Elemental with whatever fiery traits.

It's "Heat Draining" power is its main attack, so that would seem to take priority.

 

[Cleon]

All of the 3.5 quasielementals exist in Denizens of the Inner Planes pdf on the Planewalker website. I have a copy of it if you are unable to find it.

Several PS monsters are also converted to 3.5 in the Planewalker Denizens of the Transitive Planes pdf file (which I also have a copy of).

No need, I've had both those pdfs for some time.

The issue was Echohawk's Index has a bunch of links to individual Quasielementals conversions on Planewalker.com, none of which seem to work.

e.g. the Index says the Large Dust Quasielemental is at http://www.planewalker.com/codex/entry.php?intEntryID=10312 but there's no such page.

The Index also says the Elder Ash Elemental is at http://www.planewalker.com/files/DIPv1.0.zip, which appears to be the URL of the Denizens of the Inner Planes pdf, but that link's broken too!

Anyhow, here's the Denizens of the Inner Planes pdf's current location on Planewalker.com.

 

[freyar]

We might as well just try to do these quickly and just reduce the unconverted critters in the other threads, since we're starting already.

Shall we get going on the ash quasi?