Converting Planescape monsters

[freyar]

The Ref save makes sense as being Str-based, which makes sense with the cube and elementals --- those effects are based on getting mown over or buffeted around. So I do support Str-based DC for the Ref save. But the Fort save vs nausea make more sense as being Con-based since that is presumably due to negative energy, etc, intrinsic to the quasi-elemental and not due to the quasi slamming engulfed critters around. The appropriate precedent for the nausea is paralysis from the tendriculos, which has a Con-based DC.

So, how about we base the two DCs on different stats? I'm pretty sure there are some rare precedents for that. Otherwise, we could drop the nausea I guess.

In the original stats, slam damage was the same as the ash quasi, so how about matching the ash quasi (which is what I think you have in red). I would also be fine with the disintegration damage matching the ash quasi's chilling blast damage or else chilling aura if you feel the blast is too much.

 

[Cleon]

The Ref save makes sense as being Str-based, which makes sense with the cube and elementals --- those effects are based on getting mown over or buffeted around. So I do support Str-based DC for the Ref save. But the Fort save vs nausea make more sense as being Con-based since that is presumably due to negative energy, etc, intrinsic to the quasi-elemental and not due to the quasi slamming engulfed critters around. The appropriate precedent for the nausea is paralysis from the tendriculos, which has a Con-based DC.

I was using the Swarm's Distraction SA as a model, not the Tendriculos. Although that uses Con-based too.

So, how about we base the two DCs on different stats? I'm pretty sure there are some rare precedents for that. Otherwise, we could drop the nausea I guess.

I want to keep the nausea to correspond to the original monster's ability to render its engulfed victim helpless.

As for the "two different stat" SQs the closest I can think of as a precedent offhand is a Gelatinous Cube's Engulf, which uses Str to avoid being engulfed then Con to avoid being paralyzed.

That's written up as two SA though.

Dang it. Why don't we just do the same. It's so obvious once I thought of it:

Distraction (Ex): Any creature that begins its turn engulfed by a dust quasi-elemental must succeed at a Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1 round (see the Engulf table for the DC). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Engulf (Ex): If a dust quasi-elemental hits an opponent its own size or smaller with its slam attack, the opponent must succeed on a Reflex save or be engulfed in the quasi-elemental's body The DC to save against the engulf effect varies with the quasi-elemental's size and is Strength-based (see table below). The engulfed creature is considered grappled and trapped within the quasi-elemental's body. A dust quasi-elemental can engulf as many creatures as will fit inside its space.

Objects and creatures engulfed by the quasi-elemental take damage at the end of each round they remain engulfed (see table). Any target reduced to -10 or fewer hit points by this damage is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

*ENGULF TABLE*

​

In the original stats, slam damage was the same as the ash quasi, so how about matching the ash quasi (which is what I think you have in red). I would also be fine with the disintegration damage matching the ash quasi's chilling blast damage or else chilling aura if you feel the blast is too much.

Yes, their slams ought to be the same. Do we have its slams do typeless "disintegrate" damage instead of the Ash Quasi's "cold" damage?

The Dust's disintegration engulf attack did the same 2d6 damage as the Ash's cone attack, suggesting we should use the Chilling Blast damage.

 

[freyar]

Distraction + Engulf works well.

My feeling on extra damage to the slam: the typeless disintegration in the engulf, especially with disraction, seems quite a bit stronger than the ash's Chilling Blast. So I'd be fine with leaving the Dust's slams as bludgeoning damage only; that seems like the two quasis would still be at about the same CR. I could possibly see increasing the Dust slam damage a step if you feel it's necessary, though.

 

[Cleon]

Distraction + Engulf works well.

My feeling on extra damage to the slam: the typeless disintegration in the engulf, especially with disraction, seems quite a bit stronger than the ash's Chilling Blast. So I'd be fine with leaving the Dust's slams as bludgeoning damage only; that seems like the two quasis would still be at about the same CR. I could possibly see increasing the Dust slam damage a step if you feel it's necessary, though.

The original monster only disintegrated creatures it had engulfed, so I'm OK making the slam normal bludgeoning damage. Especially as the original's "Dust Storm" attack caused damage by "physical battering".

We've still got that dust storm attack to sort out, incidentally.

Anyhow, at least I can update the Dust Quasi-Elemental Working Draft with the Engulf and Distraction SA.

 

[Cleon]

I've updated the Hit Dice, Initiative and BAB/Grapple to match the current HD and ability scores, which's allowed me to "de-red" them.

I'd like to put in values for the slam attacks and saving throws. If we want the average damage to match the Ash Quasi we'll need an unusually high base damage - e.g. 1d8 for a Small elemental, 2d6 for a Medium, 3d6 for Large, 4d6 for Huge and 6d6 for the Monolith. That's a higher base damage than an Earth or Water Elemental (since those two have higher Strength scores to compensate).

Alternatively, we could just give 'em the same base slam damage as an Earth of Water Elemental, although that'd mean the Dust Quasi conversion's slam damage is lower than the Ash Quasi, not the same like the original monster.

For the saves, the question is do we make its Good save Ref or Fort?

I'm leaning toward giving it a good Ref save, but can see arguments for both. Any preferences?

 

[freyar]

Well, we took a few liberties with the Ash's slam, which was originally a cold-damage-only touch attack, at least the way I read some of the text, so I don't feel like we need the slam damage needs to be quite the same. I'd go with base slam damage like Earth or Water; the CR will probably work out the same as the Ash quasi since the disintegrating engulf seems fairly strong. And yes, it's time to look at that dust storm.

While I see the physiological similarities to an Air elemental, I think the association of the Dust quasi with elemental Earth is a stronger point of reasoning. I'd go with good Fort save.

 

[Cleon]

Well, we took a few liberties with the Ash's slam, which was originally a cold-damage-only touch attack, at least the way I read some of the text, so I don't feel like we need the slam damage needs to be quite the same. I'd go with base slam damage like Earth or Water; the CR will probably work out the same as the Ash quasi since the disintegrating engulf seems fairly strong. And yes, it's time to look at that dust storm.

Yes, I'd be OK giving them the same base damage as an Earth/Water since their nastier special attacks act as compensation for the lower Strength bonus.

Shall I update the Working Draft with the Earth Elemental's slam dice then?

And yes, it's time to look at that dust storm.

The obvious approach would be recycling as much of the Air Elemental's Whirlwind as we can use.

How often and how long can a Dust Quasi use this attack? The original text does not say.

While I see the physiological similarities to an Air elemental, I think the association of the Dust quasi with elemental Earth is a stronger point of reasoning. I'd go with good Fort save.

Hmm, well if we give the Salt Quasi good Fort saves too (which seems reasonable) it'll mean the Negative Quasi-Elementals have the same good saves as their corresponding "pure" Elemental, which at least has the benefit of consistency.

 

[Cleon]

The obvious approach would be recycling as much of the Air Elemental's Whirlwind as we can use.

How often and how long can a Dust Quasi use this attack? The original text does not say.

Okay, the original monster had a 40 ft. radius dust cloud that did 1d2 damage per HD and caused 1d10 rounds of blindness (save vs. rod/staff/wand negates).

Wands is one of the weaker saves in AD&D, so I'm reluctant to make it Str-based like a Whirlwind attack. How about Con-based?

The area and damage seem awful high. An AD&D Air Elemental does 2d8 with its whirlwind in a 30 foot diameter. The AD&D Dust Quasi has an 80 foot diameter and does 6d2, 9d2 or 12d2 damage. The weakest of those has the same average damage as an Air Elemental.

I think we'd better trim that damage and area. How about making the diameter equal to the height of an Air Elemental's Whirlwind, then the "40 feet radius" will be the size of a Dust Monolith's 80-foot dust storm?

For the damage, I'd be OK making it the same as an Air Elemental but would rather make it slightly more. Maybe we could keep the small dice size of the original?

Something like:

Elemental Size	Damage	Diameter
Small	1d6	10-20 ft.
Medium	2d4	10-30 ft.
Large	3d4	10-40 ft.
Huge	4d4	10-50 ft.
Greater	4d4	10-60 ft.
Elder	4d4	10-60 ft.
Monolith	6d4	10-80 ft.

 

[Cleon]

How often and how long can a Dust Quasi use this attack? The original text does not say.

Come to think of it, we have the Air Elemental's "The elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has" so might as well use that for the duration.

Okay, I fancy roughing out a Dust Storm special attack.

How's this:

Dust Storm (Su): A dust quasi-elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has. In this form, the elemental can move along a surface or fly (perfect maneuverability) at its land speed.

The dust storm can be up to 30 feet tall and up to 80 feet in diameter, depending on the elemental's size. The dust quasi-elemental controls the exact dimensions, but it must be at least 10 feet tall and 10 feet in diameter.

The elemental's movement while in dust storm form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the elemental enters the space another creature occupies. Any creature or object that makes contact with the dust storm must succeed at a Reflex save or be blinded for X rounds. It must also succeed on a Fortitude save or take the indicated damage. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

The dust storm creates a swirling cloud of debris centered on the elemental. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment.

Creatures caught in the dust storm can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the dust storm take a -4 penalty to Dexterity and a -2 penalty on attack rolls. The elemental can have as many creatures inside the dust storm as will fit inside its volume.

Elemental	Height	Weight	Blindness Save DC	Damage (Save DC)	Diameter
Small	4 ft.	X lb.	XX	1d6 (DC)	10-20 ft.
Medium	8 ft.	X lb.	XX	2d4 (DC)	10-30 ft.
Large	16 ft.	X lb.	XX	3d4 (DC)	10-40 ft.
Huge	32 ft.	X lb.	XX	4d4 (DC)	10-50 ft.
Greater	36 ft.	X lb.	XX	4d4 (DC)	10-60 ft.
Elder	40 ft.	X lb.	XX	4d4 (DC)	10-60 ft.
Monolith	?? ft.	X lb.	XX	6d4 (DC)	10-80 ft.

 

[Cleon]

The elemental's movement while in dust storm form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the elemental enters the space another creature occupies. Any creature or object that makes contact with the dust storm must succeed at a Reflex save or be blinded for X rounds. It must also succeed on a Fortitude save or take the indicated damage. The save DCs are Constitution-based.

The original monster had no save to avoid or reduce the damage, but I thought it fairer to allow a save - especially as the 3E Air Elemental's Whirlwind does.

Originally I was going to make them both Reflex saves like the Air Elemental uses, but I fancied shaking it up a bit. How do you "avoid" an enormous cloud that's rolled over you or you've walked into. Doesn't someone hit in a sandstorm have to toughen it out (Fort save) rather than jump aside?

Besides, the 3E Weather Rules has creatures make Fort saves to avoid the effects of storms and powerful winds.

I'd be fine making it a save for half damage, but used save to negate since that's how the Whirlwind SA damage save worked.