Converting True Dragons

[Cleon]

Well, we've done the jade's disease and then gone back and discussed whether we liked it, right? And I feel like we've done something like the ruby's before, too, though maybe I'm just thinking of an ability like the fire elemental's burn.

We've done various disease breaths before, so we have precedents for that.

The magical melting breath is nasty - it even damages things that are immune to fire! Which makes me wonder whether the damage should be half fire, half something else...

We probably ought to make it a bit less automatic than "every object in the breath area, with no save", which is just icing on the cake of the amber dragon's equipment destroying ability.

Not that the jade breath is that much better - it transmits a disease that rots both creatures and objects! I wonder what it does to constructs and undead?

Anyway, base the ability and other progressions on the gold dragon?

Yes, statwise it's just a reskinned BECMI gold dragon.

I think we'd better consider changing some of the gold dragon's SLAs and/or special abilities though.

EDIT: Before we go to far, we need to decide what to call this dragon - its BECMI names of "Amber Gemstone Dragon"/"Amber Dragon" and "Brown Dragon" are already taken.

Shall we simply call it the Mystaran Amber Dragon? The only synonym for Amber I can think of offhand is electrum - but there's already an electrum dragon too!

Do you sometimes get the feeling D&D has a surfeit of dragons?

 

[freyar]

Dragons aren't as bad as spider monsters. Besides, it is Dungeons and Dragons. Mystaran Amber would work for this. Or we could take something a bit more obscure from this line on Wikipedia: "The Baltic Lithuanian term for amber is gintaras and Latvian dzintars. They, and the Slavic jantar or Hungarian gyanta ('resin'), are thought to originate from Phoenician jainitar ("sea-resin")." Oooh, or what about copal?

Yeah, we're going to have to work on those breath weapons.

 

[Cleon]

Dragons aren't as bad as spider monsters. Besides, it is Dungeons and Dragons. Mystaran Amber would work for this. Or we could take something a bit more obscure from this line on Wikipedia: "The Baltic Lithuanian term for amber is gintaras and Latvian dzintars. They, and the Slavic jantar or Hungarian gyanta ('resin'), are thought to originate from Phoenician jainitar ("sea-resin")." Oooh, or what about copal?

I didn't much like most of the synonyms of amber since they have a literal meaning of "sea-resin" and this dragon has no particular association with the sea.

As for copal, the Rules Cyclopedia version classifies this monster as a Gemstone Dragon and copal is not a gemstone (since the resin's merely hardened rather than fossilized).

I think Mystaran Amber Dragon is a better name.

Yeah, we're going to have to work on those breath weapons.

Looks that way!

 

[freyar]

Mystaran Amber Dragon is ok, though I like copal since it's not fossilized and the dragon has a melting breath weapon. OK, OK, that's a weak link, but still.

Shall we pull up the jade's disease breath as a starting point?

 

[Cleon]

Mystaran Amber Dragon is ok, though I like copal since it's not fossilized and the dragon has a melting breath weapon. OK, OK, that's a weak link, but still.

Shall we pull up the jade's disease breath as a starting point?

You mean this one:

Breath Weapon (Su): A jade dragon has two breath weapons, a cone of corrosive (acid) gas or a cone of putrid swirling brown and yellow and green gas that rots the flesh of living creatures and instantly rots and destroys any nonorganic matter it touches. Attended and magical organic items receive Reflex saves to avoid this effect. Living creatures suffer ability damage as per the following table.

Wyrmling	1 Con and 1 Cha
Very Young	1d2 Con and 1d2 Cha
Young	1d3 Con and 1d3 Cha
Juvenile	1d4 Con and 1d4 Cha
Young Adult	1d6 Con and 1d6 Cha
Adult	1d8 Con and 1d8 Cha
Mature Adult	1d8 Con and 1d8 Cha
Old Dragon	1d10 Con and 1d10 Cha
Very Old	1d10 Con and 1d10 Cha
Ancient	2d6 Con and 2d6 Cha
Wyrm	2d8 Con and 2d8 Cha
Great Wyrm	3d6 Con and 3d6 Cha

* * *​

You know, as written that actually has a worse effect on items than the original dragon - it's instantaneous and there's no way to prevent it, while at least the original took 1d6 turns and could be stopped with a cure disease. It's also worth noting the RC version does not affect metal items.

 

[freyar]

I think the jade's breath rot "organic" matter, not "nonorganic" matter, since the original affects "nonmetal" items. I think this might have been a copy-paste error from various acid abilities in the SRD that affect inorganic stuff.

It's worth noting that, while this breath weapon is a bit nastier than the original, it's also nicer in that it allows items an extra save beyond the one the living creature gets. But the new version is a lot easier to use.

 

[Cleon]

I think the jade's breath rot "organic" matter, not "nonorganic" matter, since the original affects "nonmetal" items. I think this might have been a copy-paste error from various acid abilities in the SRD that affect inorganic stuff.

It's worth noting that, while this breath weapon is a bit nastier than the original, it's also nicer in that it allows items an extra save beyond the one the living creature gets. But the new version is a lot easier to use.

All the various versions specify the "jade breath" affects nonmetallic items, which presumably includes stone and the like. They could easily have said "organic-only" or "living or once-living material" if that's what they'd intended.

Since we're doing this anyway, I'm thinking we should take a different approach to the breath weapon than the CC Jade Dragon's Constitution and Charisma damage.

For a start, the original monster's breath weapon did corrosive damage to (almost) everything, so it ought to be harmful to creatures that are unaffected by Ability Damage.

Secondly, I'm not keen on the idea of it doing Charisma damage - I don't think there's anything to suggest that in the original monster.

 

[freyar]

I just don't like that the CC breath weapon as stated says "nonorganic" since that excludes wood items, etc.

If we're re-working things, I'd prefer to make the effects of the breath a "curse" rather than a "disease" since diseases don't affect items by themselves. Or maybe it's a curse that also carries a disease. What do you think? I'm ok with Con damage only.

 

[Cleon]

I just don't like that the CC breath weapon as stated says "nonorganic" since that excludes wood items, etc..

Yes, I agree I don't much carry for the CC's "nonorganic", if only because it means the breath will destroy metal objects, which were originally specified as immune.

That said, I'd be willing to consider allowing nonmetallic materials that were as tough as steel to also be immune - maybe have Jade Breath not rot objects/materials with hardness 10 or higher or which are made from any kind of metal? That way a +3 ebonwood weapon (hardness 11) is as immune as a weapon made from ordinary steel, bronze, or copper, while a ebonwood weapon with a +2 or lower enhancement bonus must pass the Fort save or be slowly destroyed.

If we're re-working things, I'd prefer to make the effects of the breath a "curse" rather than a "disease" since diseases don't affect items by themselves. Or maybe it's a curse that also carries a disease. What do you think? I'm ok with Con damage only.

It's pretty obviously some kind of supernatural effect - diseases don't normally affect inanimate objects! So I'd be fine having it be phrased more as a curse, à la Mummy Rot. Similarly, I'd approach the "Melting" secondary effect of the Ruby dragon-breath more as a supernatural transformation than mundane heat.

What do you think? I'm ok with Con damage only.

As for the damage, I was thinking of sticking pretty closely to the original approach of it doing acid damage AND carrying a rotting "curse".

The Mystaran Monstrous Compendium version of this breath weapon is very similar in principle to the BECMI version, but allows two saving throws. A save vs. breath weapon to take half damage from the acid, and if that fails a save vs. poison to avoid contracting the rotting effect.

I rather like that approach.

In 3E terms, the victim gets a Reflex save for half acid damage, and if they fail they (any every object they carry) are exposed to the disease, which the victim and any magical items they carry can avoid contracting with a Fort save. Any nonmagical object automatically infected unless it's made from an exempt material.

 

[freyar]

In 3E terms, the victim gets a Reflex save for half acid damage, and if they fail they (any every object they carry) are exposed to the disease, which the victim and any magical items they carry can avoid contracting with a Fort save. Any nonmagical object automatically infected unless it's made from an exempt material.

I can go along with this, with exemption for hardness 10 or above. Although I think I might prefer a Will save to avoid the curse, since it's not really a disease. I'm not sure about that point. We can use the same structure for the melting. Maybe we can switch saves for the two.