D&D 5E Convince me to keep reading Princes of the Apocalypse (*significant* spoilers. Also my players keep out)

[Derren]

No, but if Waterdeep has a habit of marching it's Guard into the wilderness, Lackland isn't going to sign up at all.

There are enough people who will. How do you think wars were fought in the past?

Ah, the "everyone is leveled" argument.

Is there an argument in there?
Leveled or not, in D&D people with experience (or at least highly trained like spellcasters) are a lot stronger than people without which makes peasant levies a very weak force no serious nation would employ.

No, they're hideously expensive instead.

Yes, and still most nations have them. And when you do you can also march them around and let them deal with problems instead having them doing nothing.

 

[Staffan]

Actually Greenest is a mere 240 miles from Baldurs Gate and Red Larch is about 100 miles to Waterdeep (See http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/images/faerunlarge.jpg).

The attached map has 5 hexes per inch, and the scale is 120 miles per inch (it's the map from the 3e FRCS plus one of the overlays from 2e). Count along the roads, and you'll get 20 or 21 hexes between Greenest and Baldur's Gate. If you can fly it might be faster, but I would not recommend sending a messenger on an important mission through the Wood of Sharp Teeth. 20 hexes = 4 inches = 4 x 120 miles = 480 miles, which is about 500.

This is also some of what the 2e box has to say about the Western Heartlands:

The Western Heartlands have best been described by one sage as “Miles and miles of miles and miles.” Theirs is a sweeping, open terrain, broken by arid and eroded badlands, rolling hills, and high, forbidding moors. The land is often an area one passes through on the way to other areas— traders heading for Cormyr or Waterdeep, adventurers heading for the Inner Sea or the Savage Frontier, or armies and mercenaries heading for Amn and Tethyr. Yet life and civilization flourish here in the form of a handful of small mercantile city-states and a scattering of walled towns.

[...]

No nation lays claim on the Western Heartlands to land beyond that which their armies can control, and no warlord can make demands beyond the swing of his axe. Small holds and castles regularly spring up, only to be knocked down by invading forces, or abandoned after a generation or two.

The cities of the Westen Heartlands cooperate on some issues and extend some power beyond their immediate reach - for example, they cooperate on maintaining the Trade Way and keeping it somewhat free of bandits, because that is in their common interest. But neither Baldur's Gate, Berdusk, nor Iriaebor try to exert power over independent towns like Greenest - they want to go out there and found a town, good luck to them, but it's none of our business.

 

[Cadriel]

In the case of PotA, "Why doesn't someone else do it?" is a question that wouldn't even come up until the PCs are already in the thick of things. I mean, imagine if you actually went up to the current open Lord of Waterdeep to tell them about how there are a nest of cultists in the hinterlands a hundred miles outside of their city. As far as the Waterdhavians are concerned, the main problem is a drain on their resources from extra caravan guards being needed.

By the time (at the start of chapter 5) that things get serious and have wide ranging effects beyond scared farmers and extra bandit raids in the adventure's plot line, the PCs will be 10th level - essentially the Big Damn Heroes of the region. Why wouldn't the Lords of Waterdeep decide that, hey, there are already heroes on the case, no need for some dramatic intervention? It's a pretty logical design, in that regard.

Now, you can argue that if the PCs fail, the Super Big Heroes of the Realms will clean it up. But at what cost? By the time one of the Elemental Princes gets out, it will probably have time to devastate a good chunk of the Dessarin Valley before an appointed saviors arrive on the scene. And those heroes won't be able to do whatever they'd be doing otherwise, so it's not like this is "free." And if the heroes aren't setting the cult back in the initial adventure, it will also be harder for the Super Big Heroes to deal with,mhaving more resources and a freer hand in the area. It really does make sense for the PCs to be involved in the whole campaign, given all that.

 

[Derren]

The attached map has 5 hexes per inch, and the scale is 120 miles per inch (it's the map from the 3e FRCS plus one of the overlays from 2e). Count along the roads, and you'll get 20 or 21 hexes between Greenest and Baldur's Gate. If you can fly it might be faster, but I would not recommend sending a messenger on an important mission through the Wood of Sharp Teeth. 20 hexes = 4 inches = 4 x 120 miles = 480 miles, which is about 500.

This is also some of what the 2e box has to say about the Western Heartlands:

The Western Heartlands have best been described by one sage as “Miles and miles of miles and miles.” Theirs is a sweeping, open terrain, broken by arid and eroded badlands, rolling hills, and high, forbidding moors. The land is often an area one passes through on the way to other areas— traders heading for Cormyr or Waterdeep, adventurers heading for the Inner Sea or the Savage Frontier, or armies and mercenaries heading for Amn and Tethyr. Yet life and civilization flourish here in the form of a handful of small mercantile city-states and a scattering of walled towns.

[...]

No nation lays claim on the Western Heartlands to land beyond that which their armies can control, and no warlord can make demands beyond the swing of his axe. Small holds and castles regularly spring up, only to be knocked down by invading forces, or abandoned after a generation or two.

The cities of the Westen Heartlands cooperate on some issues and extend some power beyond their immediate reach - for example, they cooperate on maintaining the Trade Way and keeping it somewhat free of bandits, because that is in their common interest. But neither Baldur's Gate, Berdusk, nor Iriaebor try to exert power over independent towns like Greenest - they want to go out there and found a town, good luck to them, but it's none of our business.

Okay I accept that despite it not making sense at all FR lore dictates that there is a huge unclaimed area right at the doorstep of large powers who do not care about that or any potential tax revenue coming from the badly defended settlements along a major trade way.
Still that can hardly also serve as an explanation for why Waterdeep wouldn't care about what happens a few days rides away.

Now, you can argue that if the PCs fail, the Super Big Heroes of the Realms will clean it up. But at what cost? By the time one of the Elemental Princes gets out, it will probably have time to devastate a good chunk of the Dessarin Valley before an appointed saviors arrive on the scene. And those heroes won't be able to do whatever they'd be doing otherwise, so it's not like this is "free." And if the heroes aren't setting the cult back in the initial adventure, it will also be harder for the Super Big Heroes to deal with,mhaving more resources and a freer hand in the area. It really does make sense for the PCs to be involved in the whole campaign, given all that.

Why the focus on super big heroes? This is not the world threatening Rise of Tiamat nobody cares about. A squad of 30 men at arms can pacify the area easily. Only if not then it is time to get out the bigger guns, but thanks to 5Es power curve, that could just mean sending 200 knights than sending Elminster & Co.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

OK, based on the very favorable reviews here, I took an extra 40 minutes going home to find a store that had the new Princes of the Apocalypse adventure and dropped $52.00 (inc tax) on it since I have a rare free weekend where I can read it through. And after about an hour of reading, I'm pretty much of the opinion this isn't a very good adventure and I've wasted my time and money. I just want to raise my concerns and see how others feel they can be dealt with.

Again, this is a rant about certain issues, but rather than being purely a list of problems, I want to hear what others think and how they plan on dealing with these issues.
[sblock]

• My major issue with this adventure is how static it is. Everything happens in a fairly well developed and well traveled part of the world. Yet bad things apparently abound. And more so, there are all sorts of things just packed together in a way that reminds me of keep-on-the-boarderlands as much as anything.
  • Just in the first part (Sighing Valley) We've got gnolls, manicores, griffons, aarakocra, and two cult locations all easily within 10 football fields of each other. And a dead body. (And as a note, the map's scale isn't consistent!) This all seems unlikely.
  • It's unclear (so far) why, given a cult so evil and potentially powerful, the PCs can't just head to one of the "nearby" major cities (week away) and ask for help. I mean it sounds like they might be going there at some point. Does no one in Waterdeep care enough even if presented with significant evidence of what's going on? Now I'm hopeful there is a good answer somewhere in the module that I've not read, but it ain't obvious.
• Descriptions are sometimes sparse to the point I find it hard to follow what is going on.
  • What the heck is "the Eagle" on page 47? A self-reseting (non-magical?) battering ram? I'd really appreciate some better idea what's going on here.
  • How many people (total) are there at RiverGard Keep?
  • also at RiverGard, what are the commoners doing here? Where do they stay? It sounds like they know about the cultists and don't like them. So are they slaves? Do they know the those occupying the keep are cultists? I've no idea. It feels like they just got tacked into a wandering monster table.

[/sblock]

In general, this doesn't seem to be an adventure of the quality of most of the later Pathfinder adventure paths nor of the better modules from 2e and 3e (think of the Red Hand of Doom here). Maybe it's better than the previous adventures (reviews here kept me from those) but it still feels weak.

All that said, I'm planning on running a 5e module and I've dropped a couple hours and $50 into this. So I'd love to hear what others think and how they plan on dealing with the issues raised (or why they aren't issues...)

OK I have actually read through the Adventure. So I can answer your issues.
Point1 [sblock]
[*]My major issue with this adventure is how static it is. Everything happens in a fairly well developed and well traveled part of the world. Yet bad things apparently abound. And more so, there are all sorts of things just packed together in a way that reminds me of keep-on-the-boarderlands as much as anything.

This is not a well developed part of the world. It's pointed out that bandits and monstrous humanoids are a constant issue. The cults are also starting out secret and stuff not causing issues outright.[/sblock]

Point2 [sblock]
[*]Just in the first part (Sighing Valley) We've got gnolls, manicores, griffons, aarakocra, and two cult locations all easily within 10 football fields of each other. And a dead body. (And as a note, the map's scale isn't consistent!) This all seems unlikely.

It's a valley there will be wildlife. A gang of 8 gnolls are hanging in the valley taking down creatures in the air they see. Giffons like to eat Hippogriffs so they made a nest there other then that they are just animals. The pair of Manticores have nest and pray on creatures in the valley. I don't get how their is an issue with the maps scale. As for the two Cult locations. The entire reason Feathergale Spire was built was to serve as an outpost for the entrance one of the Temple's entrances. The Aarakocra are here because their main thing is fighting Elemental Evil and they are spying on the Feathergale Knights.[/sblock]

Point 3
[sblock][*]It's unclear (so far) why, given a cult so evil and potentially powerful, the PCs can't just head to one of the "nearby" major cities (week away) and ask for help. I mean it sounds like they might be going there at some point. Does no one in Waterdeep care enough even if presented with significant evidence of what's going on? Now I'm hopeful there is a good answer somewhere in the module that I've not read, but it ain't obvious.

No one has idea the cult is so evil and powerful, There is no significant evidence that a huge threat to the region is happening just a cult of fanatics. It does not matter to Lords of Waterdeep anyway this is not their land and they have their own problems. The fractions later on are willing to help but it's by giving the players resources they have other things to focus on. [/sblock]

point 4
[sblock][*]Descriptions are sometimes sparse to the point I find it hard to follow what is going on.
Make sure you actually read the flavor text and don't just skim. [/sblock]

Point 5
[sblock][*]What the heck is "the Eagle" on page 47? A self-reseting (non-magical?) battering ram? I'd really appreciate some better idea what's going on here.
It's brought up in the favor text and the normal text. It's a Battering ram it swings forward when the level is pulled and when it swings back a mechanism locks it back into place. [/sblock]

Point 6 and 7
[sblock][*]How many people (total) are there at RiverGard Keep?
[*]also at RiverGard, what are the commoners doing here? Where do they stay? It sounds like they know about the cultists and don't like them. So are they slaves? Do they know the those occupying the keep are cultists? I've no idea. It feels like they just got tacked into a wandering monster table.
It does not matter too much how many people there are total at Rivergard. You can always read through the rooms and count them all if you want to.
As for the commoners the book says what they are doing here and why. On the random encounter chart it even says what room you should read to learn about them.[/sblock]

Honestly most of your issues could be fixed by paying a little more attention to what the book says and reading a bit farther.

 

[Cadriel]

Why the focus on super big heroes? This is not the world threatening Rise of Tiamat nobody cares about. A squad of 30 men at arms can pacify the area easily. Only if not then it is time to get out the bigger guns, but thanks to 5Es power curve, that could just mean sending 200 knights than sending Elminster & Co.

What 200 knights, at which point in the adventure? Literally the engine of the module is of an escalating visible threat. Initially it looks like some weird bandit and minor cult activity, and while the PCs find plenty to fight, nothing happens that would call for a "Let's send a force of 200 knights" type response until chapter 5, when magical effects would definitely be able to handle a few hundred low level knights.

 

[Nellisir]

Is there an argument in there?

A difference of campaign style that I'm not at all interested in debating.

Leveled or not, in D&D people with experience (or at least highly trained like spellcasters) are a lot stronger than people without which makes peasant levies a very weak force no serious nation would employ.

Again, campaign style.

Yes, and still most nations have them.

Now. Not then.

And when you do you can also march them around and let them deal with problems instead having them doing nothing.

If doing nothing is an option, then you send them home and save the cash, you don't make up little jobs for them to do like a bunch of preschoolers. Standing armies, in the historical European context that most D&D campaigns draw from, are actually anachronistic. England didn't have a standing army until the mid-seventeenth century. France had the first post-Roman standing army in western Europe, in the mid-fifteenth century.

 

[Derren]

A difference of campaign style that I'm not at all interested in debating.


Again, campaign style.


Now. Not then.

If doing nothing is an option, then you send them home and save the cash, you don't make up little jobs for them to do like a bunch of preschoolers. Standing armies, in the historical European context that most D&D campaigns draw from, are actually anachronistic. England didn't have a standing army until the mid-seventeenth century. France had the first post-Roman standing army in western Europe, in the mid-fifteenth century.

The campaign is FR, which is quite 15th century tech level, and that experienced people are much more powerful than inexperienced ones is simply because of the level/cr system. Nothing dependent on style.
And you fail to mention that after France many nations (Austria, Spain,...) quickly adopted standing armies and that the Ottomans had a standing army even before them. As for why Britain was so late you just have to look at a map. Better ask when they started to have a standing navy.
Also centuries before there were de facto standing armies in the form of militant orders.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

The campaign is FR, which is quite 15th century tech level, and that experienced people are much more powerful than inexperienced ones is simply because of the level/cr system. Nothing dependent on style.
And you fail to mention that after France many nations (Austria, Spain,...) quickly adopted standing armies and that the Ottomans had a standing army even before them. As for why Britain was so late you just have to look at a map. Better ask when they started to have a standing navy.
Also centuries before there were de facto standing armies in the form of militant orders.

Waterdeep does not have a standing Army however as it's a Citystate not a Kingdom. They have Guardsmen and stuff but they are not going to send armies out for little reason.

 

[Nellisir]

... experienced people are much more powerful than inexperienced ones is simply because of the level/cr system. Nothing dependent on style.

The point of contention isn't whether or not experienced people are more powerful, it's whether or not inexperienced NPCs can be trained up as quickly as PCs. That is style-dependent, because it assumes NPCs = PCs, which isn't even true in the core books, and that's not taking into account optional rules and simple DM fiat.

And you fail to mention that after France many nations (Austria, Spain,...) quickly adopted standing armies and that the Ottomans had a standing army even before them.

France and England were the most relevant examples, and the Ottomans weren't in western Europe. I didn't mention China or the Aztecs either. :/

Anyways, you're still missing the cost factor. Those were nations, and they couldn't afford standing armies until very recently. The economy of Waterdeep is smaller by a number of factors, and the economies of other city-states around the North are smaller still. They simply can't support that kind of military.

Really, do as you like, dude. It sounds like you've got a lot of disagreements with Realmsian canon anyways.