Core Concept of a PrC (Craziness?)

[Mike Sullivan]

There's been some discussion here recently of the difficulty in handling spellcasting classes with +1 Caster Level deals. I'd go so far as to say that handling multiclassing spellcasters is the one real failure of the D&D multiclass system.

But I was thinking -- what if you had a PrC that, instead of progressing you up your old classes's caster table, added to the number of bonus spells you got?

As an example, you might have a class that adds its class level to your effective Intelligence for the purposes of calculating bonus spells (only). So, if you were a Wizard 10/Whatever 5, and your Intelligence was 20, you'd get bonus spells as if your Intelligence was 25 -- but you'd still get skill points/save DC's/whatever based on your normal +5 Intelligence modifier.

That might be a "kinder, gentler" way to add to the character's spellcasting capabilities, without getting out-of-hand like the caster levels seem to.

(Obviously, you could tune this in different ways, adding *2 class level or *.75 class level, for balance).

Is this just crazy? Or could it work?

 

[FireLance]

It could work. In fact, there are PrCs that work along similar lines. The Mystic, which appeared in one of the earliest 3e Dragon magazines, specifically gave you bonus spells which you could add to your spells cast per day, but no more than one to the highest level of spells that you are able to cast.

For example, a 1st-level Mystic gets 2 bonus spells. If he was previously a 7th-level wizard with 4/4/3/2/1 spells per day (ignoring bonus spells from Intelligence) you could get add a 4th-level spell and a 3rd-level spell (for 4/4/3/3/2 spells per day), but not two 4th-level spells. If he gains another level of Mystic, he gains 3 bonus spells and could add one 4th-level spell and two 3rd-level spells for 4/4/3/5/4 spells per day.

Two problems still remain. One, the Mystic never gains any spell levels higher than what he was previously capable of casting. The Eunuch Warlock, from Oriental Adventures, solves this by giving a Spellcasting Boost ability that increases the highest level spell that you can cast by 1 each time you gain the ability.

The second, is that spellcasting level does not increase. Hence, you are at a distinct disadvantage when facing spell resisitant foes. Nonetheless, you could always houserule that spellcasting level increases even though spells per day do not.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Two problems still remain. One, the Mystic never gains any spell levels higher than what he was previously capable of casting. The Eunuch Warlock, from Oriental Adventures, solves this by giving a Spellcasting Boost ability that increases the highest level spell that you can cast by 1 each time you gain the ability.

The second, is that spellcasting level does not increase. Hence, you are at a distinct disadvantage when facing spell resisitant foes. Nonetheless, you could always houserule that spellcasting level increases even though spells per day do not.

Well, that's kind of the point. The idea is to give a spellcasting progression without giving someone the full power of another Spellcasting Level.

 

[Samothdm]

I think I may be going a little off-topic but it's related to what you were talking about regarding multi-classed spellcasters (not just PrCs) being a problem.

I've got a player in my group who is Cleric4/Sor2. He's a 6th level character but his highest spell is 2nd Level. So, if he takes on a 6th level wizard or a 6th level cleric, they have much more powerful spells. He feels like he made a poor choice by multi-classing to spellcasters (he's a newbie) but it fit with his character background. So, as it is now, as a 6th level character, he only gets 1 magic missile. That sames kind of wrong somehow.

That's why I like the idea of PrCs, or maybe a feat, that would allow you to raise your effective level (so, he could have 3 magic missiles for being 6th level) but he wouldn't get any more spells per day or higher level spells. It's a way to at least give his spells that increase with level a little more power.

 

[The Proconsul]

Well, then perhaps Magic Missile was just a poor choice. There are plenty of spells that don't depend on level - say, Charm Person, for example, or Hold Person.

Of course, it's too late now to change that...

 

[Nifft]

Well, then perhaps Magic Missile was just a poor choice. There are plenty of spells that don't depend on level - say, Charm Person, for example, or Hold Person.

Duration, amigo! You still need level for that.

There are few spells which don't scale -- True Strike is a noteworthy example.

-- Nifft

 

[The Proconsul]

*kicks himself in the head*

You are right, of course.

Still, I think these would be better than Magic Missile - they ARE out for a couple of rounds, and that hurts no matter the level.

 

[FireLance]

Well, that's kind of the point. The idea is to give a spellcasting progression without giving someone the full power of another Spellcasting Level.

+1 spellcasting level provides two benefits: More spells amd better spells. The bonus spell approach provides more spells. However, I feel that spellcasters will be disadvantaged if they cannot cast better spells. Given a choice between more spells and better spells, I would prefer better spells.

 

[FireLance]

That's why I like the idea of PrCs, or maybe a feat, that would allow you to raise your effective level (so, he could have 3 magic missiles for being 6th level) but he wouldn't get any more spells per day or higher level spells. It's a way to at least give his spells that increase with level a little more power.

How do you like this one? (Yes, I'm plugging it again)

Spellcasting Compensation

Prerequisites: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells

Benefit: Choose one spellcasting class. You gain an effective caster level in this class equal to your caster level plus the modifier for the attribute that the spells in this class are based on (e.g. Intelligence for Wizards, Charisma for Bards and Sorcerers, Wisdom for Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers). Your effective caster level affects all level-dependent variables of the spells you cast, including caster level checks to penetrate spell resistance and the DC of checks to dispel your spells. It does not affect your number of spells per day or spells known. Your effective caster level cannot exceed your character level.

Special: The character can gain this feat multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time the character takes the feat, it applies to a new spellcasting class.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

+1 spellcasting level provides two benefits: More spells amd better spells. The bonus spell approach provides more spells. However, I feel that spellcasters will be disadvantaged if they cannot cast better spells. Given a choice between more spells and better spells, I would prefer better spells.

I'd say it provides three advantages: Higher caster level (which means better existing spells), More spells per day in the levels you have, and (roughly every other level) higher level spells.

The bonus spell approach gives you only one of the three. Of course the +1 spellcasting level is better/more powerful -- and I'm not suggesting getting rid of it entirely, by the way. But for some PrC's, a much more limited, but still noticeable, bonus might be more appropriate.

For example, what if you were playing a PrC that was aimed at being, like, a "Fighting Wizard," or something. It might get 1d8 HP and 3/4 BAB (or even 1/1 BAB), plus extra feats from both the Fighter and the Wizard list -- and "add Class level to effective Int for purposes of getting bonus spells."

If you wanted to make a character who got a lot of really powerful low level spells, you could also say, "add Class level to effective Int for purposes of calculating save DC's."