core problem: duelist

[Rystil Arden]

A party of four 16th level characters can easily face a EL 16 group. Two halvings means an equivalent of -2 and -2 to EL, for an equivalent of EL 12. Anything over EL 16 would be considered instant death by the DMG guidelines.

The "weakling opponent" is a CR 11 creature and does increase the CR. That and the drow constitute an EL 13 encounter.

A problem I am having with your arguments is you seem to have significant weaknesses in your knowledge of the rules. This makes it difficult to be sure we are even talking the same language. "Advanced," for instance, doesn't mean "crazy whacked out custom job," it just means "create with a template, more HD, classes, or some other change from the base creature." Any NPC with class levels, for instance, is advanced.

I could easily have given you a bunch of high AC opponents. I thought this was a fair mix. However, since you've responded with derision probably intended to prejudice the decision, my enthusiasm is already decreasing. If this group of rather typical opponents (a magical beast, skilled NPCs, a wizard and pet) is slanted toward the duelist, that would suggest the duelist is pretty strong in the majority of situations.

I don't think you know what you're talking about, but perhaps you can change my mind with a "fair and balanced" slate of opponents.

Two likely opponents for the respective characters would be each other, so that should be taken into account, too.

I dislike your tone here--I do understand the rules. I just haven't memorised the MM, so I'm taking what you write at face value. EDIT: Ohhhh, you meant the golem itself was CR 11. I thought the parenthetical at the end was for the whole encounter like the others and so you meant the whole encounter was EL 11 after the golem and then misinferred backwards that the golem was low enough not to bump the EL (since I didn't want to get out my MM to check). D'oh!

As for Advanced--Advancing a creature well is no walk in the park for most GMs. I do it myself a lot, but most seem to just take a higher CR monster instead. It is much easier.

As for selecting CRs, you should know by now that those rules don't work so well for single characters. Honestly, we should be testing these guys in groups with some buffers and healers if we want to run actual combats (I just wanted to run numbers and averages). A level 16 character can solo a CR 17 or CR 18 encounter. In fact, I've seen it. If an enemy Drow Cleric 14 fought and won against one of our fellows, it would be equivalent (but more impressive due to lower resources for NPCs). Not all CR 14s (or 18s) are created equal!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Selecting from the MM at random for the CR using dice and throwing out good-aligned opponents (which are rare in a normal game if we assume good PCs)--

1 CR 15 encounter: Vampire half-elf Mnk9/Shd4 (or Marut Inevitable--those are the only two standard choices for that CR, and they're both immune to Precise Strike)

3 CR 14 encounters: Truly Horrid Umber Hulk, Nightwing, Nalfeshnee

5 CR 13 encounters: Hydra, twelve-headed-cryo (okay, looks like we'll use a hydra after all!), Lich 11th-level human wizard, Beholder, Iron Golem, Storm Giant

How's that? I can roll again if it doesn't seem fair.

 

[Particle_Man]

As an aside, pawsplay, why don't you build a level 16 Fighter6/Duelist10.

I would recommend a Fighter 4/Something that has Tumble as a Class Skill 2/Duelist 10, or else you need to find a way for a level 6 fighter to get 5 ranks in a cross-class skill (Tumble).

For instance (to keep BAB parity):

Alice) Swashbuckler 2 (for Weapon Finesse, and Tumble, and Grace (hey, it beats an empty fighter level))
Fighter 4
Duelist 10.

Vs.

Betty) Swashbuckler 2
Fighter 14.

Alice needs Dodge and Mobility as feats. Assuming Human, that gives her 10 other feats. Betty gets 15 feats, and access to a few "special fighter only" feats.

Have fun!

 

[Rystil Arden]

I would recommend a Fighter 4/Something that has Tumble as a Class Skill 2/Duelist 10, or else you need to find a way for a level 6 fighter to get 5 ranks in a cross-class skill (Tumble).

For instance (to keep BAB parity):

Alice) Swashbuckler 2 (for Weapon Finesse, and Tumble, and Grace (hey, it beats an empty fighter level))
Fighter 4
Duelist 10.

Vs.

Betty) Swashbuckler 2
Fighter 14.

Alice needs Dodge and Mobility as feats. Assuming Human, that gives her 10 other feats. Betty gets 15 feats, and access to a few "special fighter only" feats.

Have fun!

Good point--I'd keep Betty as a straight Fighter though. If we need to advance 2 more levels to see how the builds stand up at level 18, I want to have access to Weapon Supremacy. I don't want Betty to be anything fancy--just a vanilla Fighter who takes the Fighter-only to-hit and damage feats, plus TWF and its lackies (Oversized TWF, etc)

 

[pawsplay]

My protagonist of choice is a Fig 4/Rog 4/Duelist 10. Weapon will be a +1 shock frost wounding brilliant rapier. Bracers of armor +8, amulet of natural armor +4, ring of protection +4, gloves of dexterity +6, belt of giant strength +4, headband of intellect +6, cloak of charisma +5, ring of invisibility, boots of speed. Backup weapon is a +1 ghost touch bane (undead) cold iron morningstar and a +1 adamantine longsword, plus a +1 longbow, plus a spare +1 rapier. Gear includes bag of holding, oils of greater magic weapon +5, oils of bless weapon, potions of haste, potions of CMW, silversheen, oil of slipperiness. That's off the top of my head, I need to double check gear prices.

Standard array stats, ending up with: Str 14 (18), Dex 19 (25), Int 14 (20), Con 12, Wis 8, Cha 10.

Human
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Specialization (rapier), Improved Critical (rapier), Iron Will.

AC is 10 +6 Dex +5 Int +8 armor +4 natural +4 deflection = 37.

Full attack is +25/+20/+15/+5, and add +4 to all those with oil of GMW. Damage is 1d6+1+1d6+1d6+2d6/15-20/x2, 2 points of Con. This is treated as a touch attack.

Fighting defensively, he takes a -4 penalty on his attack, but gains +11 AC.

Skills: Suffice it to say that Tumble and Jump are maxed out, and he has at least 5 ranks in Balance.

 

[Rystil Arden]

My protagonist of choice is a Fig 4/Rog 4/Duelist 10. Weapon will be a +1 shock frost wounding brilliant rapier. Bracers of armor +8, amulet of natural armor +4, ring of protection +4, gloves of dexterity +6, belt of giant strength +4, headband of intellect +6, cloak of charisma +5, ring of invisibility, boots of speed. Backup weapon is a +1 ghost touch bane (undead) cold iron morningstar and a +1 adamantine longsword, plus a +1 longbow, plus a spare +1 rapier. Gear includes bag of holding, oils of greater magic weapon +5, oils of bless weapon, potions of haste, potions of CMW, silversheen, oil of slipperiness. That's off the top of my head, I need to double check gear prices.

Standard array stats, ending up with: Str 14 (18), Dex 19 (25), Int 14 (20), Con 12, Wis 8, Cha 10.

Human
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Specialization (rapier), Improved Critical (rapier), Iron Will.

AC is 10 +6 Dex +5 Int +8 armor +4 natural +4 deflection = 37.

Full attack is +25/+20/+15/+5, and add +4 to all those with oil of GMW. Damage is 1d6+1+1d6+1d6+2d6/15-20/x2, 2 points of Con. This is treated as a touch attack.

Fighting defensively, he takes a -4 penalty on his attack, but gains +11 AC.

Skills: Suffice it to say that Tumble and Jump are maxed out, and he has at least 5 ranks in Balance.

Cool, looks great!

The Brilliant Energy attack isn't quite treated as a touch attack (doesn't cut through Natural Armour), but you probably knew that. Otherwise, looks good. We're going to have to think about whether the Rogue levels are making a difference here (after all, if you can manage to get consistent Sneak Attacks off, those 4 Rogue levels give as much extra damage dice as all 10 levels in Duelist), but we'll assume it won't for now. As to the Wounding ability--I'll have to give mine that too because that will definitely make a difference. It's 1 Con though, not 2 (did I miss something else?)

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, can you let me know how much the consumables cost?--I figure we might as well use the identical consumables for prebuffs (like GMW oil), though I'll buy more for the TWFer, of course.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, I think you actually have +1 more to hit than what you listed--shouldn't it be 17 + 7 + 1 + 1 (did you forget Weapon Focus?)

 

[Nifft]

Remember, kids: level 18 means Weapon Supremacy for Mr. Fighter.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Remember, kids: level 18 means Weapon Supremacy for Mr. Fighter.

Cheers, -- N

She has it--I mentioned that above

I'm thinking Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Thinblade), Exotic Proficiency (Thinblade), Oversized TWF, Weapon Spec (Thinblade), Greater Focus (Thinblade), Greater Spec (Thinblade), Melee Weapon Mastery, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Critical, Two Weapon Pounce, Two Weapon Rend, Power Attack, Shield Spec, Shield Ward, Weapon Supremacy, Quick Draw

though if it isn't worth the feat to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the +1 Damage, I could be persuaded to change up for something else. Any good ideas?