Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[dave2008]

But the flipside is you'll have a CR 26 Orcus who is a Demon Prince/Lesser Power going down in 1 round.

So the question is do I have to make all my Demon Princes weaklings because that's how WotC do it?

No you make Orcus CR 36,or whatever is appropriate. If I was you standard 5e, I would say CR 33 mythic. Then you say the "official" stat block is an avatar. All problems solved.

 

[dave2008]

Yes it changes the rules by re-writing one of the core tables in the DMG...will 50 million players adopt this new table do you think?

No it doesn't. It adds to them, and by using the rules in the book! Plus, they don't have to adopt anything. There is no up limit to what is a "deadly" encounter. You don't have to define what is a severe or extreme encounter at all. Providing something the is more challenging than "deadly" is OK. Heck, they have done it in official adventures! And as far as I can tell you are not writing an adventure so the encounter guidelines are moot. Finally, people are much more likely to look at CR than the encounter building guidelines. At this point, many people simple disregard the encounter guidelines.

I'm still making up my mind on it all.

Challenge Rating is just a number, but here's the thing.

The WotC (CR 20+) monsters are a bunch of milquetoast wasters. Lets take Orcus for example. That stat-block does not simply represent what they consider a CR 26 threat - it represents one of the most powerful Demon Princes who is a defacto Lesser God in the Abyss. I can't recall exactly, but some of his attacks do about 10 damage or something. WotC Orcus is a LAUGHING STOCK to Epic Players who will eat him up and **** him out ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.

...and don't talk to me about the Tarrasque, the official stats are hopeless, how does that represent any threat to an Epic Party. It doesn't. It'll be mincemeat in a round.

The issue is not CR though. It is the design of those monsters. You can design those monsters to be much more difficult encounters, within the CR budget. WotC hasn't done that for reasons (I am guessing for simplicity and ease for new comers, but I don't really know their reasons). And of course you can always slap the mythic template (which I think all demon lords should have) on them or just raise there CR.

The whole fundamental difficulty ascribed to "CR 20+" official monsters is crazy. Players do not FEAR epic level monsters because they are complete pushovers.

But some people do. My main group is lvl 15 now and I can scare the hell of them with CR 23-25 monster. Which is an appropriate challenge for them.

My plan is to stop the rot, make EPIC great again, give the monsters back their mojo and put the FEAR back into high-level players. You can't do that and retain the WotC comparisons.

Yes you can. I've done it, and I am sure you can do it too.

The official monsters are too easily dispatched to warrant being Demon Princes, Demigods or whatever.

I agree, that is why I make them tougher.

When I look at Orcus' stat block I can't design a Demon Prince to be that weak. It doesn't make logical sense to me.

I agree, but no need to change the CR, just make him stronger. Your solution would be to make that stat block a CR 17 or so, but that doesn't make Orcus any stronger. Just actually make Orcus stronger and let the CR lands where it lands. Otherwise, you need to both make him stronger and make a new CR system. What is the logic in that?

You are worried about the arbitrary number given to these monsters, but the bigger picture is what should these monsters (of a given CR) represent...pushovers or challenges.

You are the one worried about the arbitrary numbers. I am saying let go of the numbers. Make the monsters you want, and just let the CR land where it lands. Don't get hung up on changing the CR, spend your time making cool and challenging monsters. That doesn't change whatever you make the CR.

I suspect maybe you might lambast me using a slightly different Challenge Rating methodology, but at the same time you'd either buff the official Orcus stats or make a completely new stat-block for him.

Yes, I have already done that. If you don't make a new stat block for him all you have done is demote him to a CR 17 monster. How is that any better? I don't see how making a new stat block for Orcus is even an issue. You would need to do it in your system too.

 

[le Redoutable]

Unless your players are going to become gods it's all silly. I'd never introduce anything beyond say a Zues. Dieties Like Night, Fate, Hel, the elder gods of the babylonian myths that got locked out of the new creation, and creator Deities just shouldn't come into play. Even in the Myths they were the powers that even Gods Like Zues and Odin wouldn't or couldn't mess with. They were fundamental parts of the Universe. To mess with them was to mess with an intelligent portion of reality. There should just be things so powerful that directly confronting them is game over.

I should add that, like from hidden planets, a cosmic power with which you are unfriendly can easily get out of reach, either by transporting you to another universe or dimension, or just become invisible

 

[le Redoutable]

I should add that, like from hidden planets, a cosmic power with which you are unfriendly can easily get out of reach, either by transporting you to another universe or dimension, or just become invisible

... like in having a wish at will ( lol )

 

[le Redoutable]

( likely obsolete but let's try all the same )
I personally use ten power levels :
10 Cosmic Powers ( Marvel Faserip CL5000 and Beyond Range )
9 Titans ( Celestial Bodies )
8 Gods
7 Epic ( Olympic )
6 Superb
5 Excellent
4 Good
3 Mediocre
2 Poor
1 Weak

with stats caps of
10 42
9 36
8 30
7 25
6 18
5 14
4 9
3 6
2 3
1 1

else you can determine Global Level by using Max Stat -8;

that way you come to
10 -- 42-8 ==> 34
9 --- 36-8 ==> 28
8 --- 30-8 ==> 22
7 --- 25-8 ==> 17
6 --- 18-8 ==> 10
5 --- 14-8 ==> 6
4 --- 9-8 ===> 1

or
10 - 42-2 ==> 40
9 --- 36-3 ==> 33
8 --- 30-4 ==> 26
7 --- 25-5 ==> 20
6 --- 18-6 ==> 12
5 --- 14-7 ===> 7
4 ---- 9-8 ===> 1

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dave2008 amigo!

No you make Orcus CR 36,or whatever is appropriate.

Unnecessary inflation.

If I was you standard 5e, I would say CR 33 mythic. Then you say the "official" stat block is an avatar. All problems solved.

Lets look at the logic of what you are saying:

Yin: We have to formulate CR exactly like WotC (even though we already know its a broken system).
Yang: But we also have to remake every epic WotC monster because we don't want our epic monsters as weak as WotC's.

 

[dave2008]

Hey dave2008 amigo!

Howdy!

Unnecessary inflation.

Maybe, but I haven't seen anything in your proposal that makes Orcus tougher.

Lets look at the logic of what you are saying:

Yin: We have to formulate CR exactly like WotC (even though we already know its a broken system).

It is not broken, but it might be a bit bent.

Yang: But we also have to remake every epic WotC monster because we don't want our epic monsters as weak as WotC's.

You have to do that anyway! There is no difference between your proposal and mine in terms of what you need to do with WotC epic monsters.

Let's take a step back. I feel like we are talking in circles here and your are just not understand what I am saying. Because from my perspective your option is a lot more work. So let's see if we can agree on some things:

1. The WotC Orcus is CR 26 (per WotC) and is relatively weak.
2. Your proposal is to revise monster CRs down roughly 25%?
3. This would make the WotC Orcus CR 17-18.
4. This would not make Orcus any stronger.
5. How do you make the WotC Orcus stronger without changing the stat block?

 

[Upper_Krust]

No it doesn't. It adds to them, and by using the rules in the book! Plus, they don't have to adopt anything. There is no up limit to what is a "deadly" encounter. You don't have to define what is a severe or extreme encounter at all. Providing something the is more challenging than "deadly" is OK. Heck, they have done it in official adventures! And as far as I can tell you are not writing an adventure so the encounter guidelines are moot. Finally, people are much more likely to look at CR than the encounter building guidelines. At this point, many people simple disregard the encounter guidelines.

I suspect it would take me less time to tweak WotC monster damage and hit points than it would for you to create a whole new stat-block.

The issue is not CR though. It is the design of those monsters. You can design those monsters to be much more difficult encounters, within the CR budget. WotC hasn't done that for reasons (I am guessing for simplicity and ease for new comers, but I don't really know their reasons). And of course you can always slap the mythic template (which I think all demon lords should have) on them or just raise there CR.

...or simply keep them at the same established CR and simply adjust Damage & Hit Points appropriate to a monster of that CR - as determined by the DMG, which then completely balances the monsters.

But some people do. My main group is lvl 15 now and I can scare the hell of them with CR 23-25 monster. Which is an appropriate challenge for them.

Yes you can. I've done it, and I am sure you can do it too.

I agree, that is why I make them tougher.

Once you convert your PC group into their own CR all this encounter stuff is a doddle.

I agree, but no need to change the CR, just make him stronger. Your solution would be to make that stat block a CR 17 or so, but that doesn't make Orcus any stronger. Just actually make Orcus stronger and let the CR lands where it lands.

Otherwise, you need to both make him stronger and make a new CR system. What is the logic in that?

You retain the same CR for individuals and simply adjust damage and hit points - that would take a few minutes. Helluva lot less time than creating a new stat block WHICH will still have to use the flawed WotC method of incorporating secondary factors - which almost never have a bearing on actual difficulty.

You are the one worried about the arbitrary numbers. I am saying let go of the numbers. Make the monsters you want, and just let the CR land where it lands. Don't get hung up on changing the CR, spend your time making cool and challenging monsters. That doesn't change whatever you make the CR.

Either the CR means something or it means nothing.

For instance why did you suggest there should be a CR 36 version of Orcus? It sounds completely arbitrary.

Yes, I have already done that. If you don't make a new stat block for him all you have done is demote him to a CR 17 monster. How is that any better? I don't see how making a new stat block for Orcus is even an issue. You would need to do it in your system too.

You keep the same stat-block for individuals and simply tweak damage and hit points (as per the DMG)...takes 5 minutes.

For generic (non-individual) WotC monsters you just reduce the CR by 20% and round down...takes 5 seconds.

Orcus stays CR 26, Balor becomes CR 15.

 

[Upper_Krust]

... like in having a wish at will ( lol )

My cosmic deities (Sidereals/Overgods) get that as standard. Beyond that tier the deities get Unlimited Wish at will...and there are two tiers beyond that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

else you can determine Global Level by using Max Stat -8;

that way you come to
10 -- 42-8 ==> 34
9 --- 36-8 ==> 28
8 --- 30-8 ==> 22
7 --- 25-8 ==> 17
6 --- 18-8 ==> 10
5 --- 14-8 ==> 6
4 --- 9-8 ===> 1

or
10 - 42-2 ==> 40
9 --- 36-3 ==> 33
8 --- 30-4 ==> 26
7 --- 25-5 ==> 20
6 --- 18-6 ==> 12
5 --- 14-7 ===> 7
4 ---- 9-8 ===> 1

Would a cap of 6 (for strength) be necessarily considered mediocre and a cap of 10 be 'good'...?