Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[Upper_Krust]

This seems off to me. Officially in 5e Tiamat is a lesser god and her official stats were CR 30. That has changed since Fizban's came out as her avatar in that book is a CR 30 mythic monster (think 2 CR 30 monsters). Since I assume a god is stronger than its avatar, then Tiamat, a lesser god, must be stronger than a CR 30 mythic monster. Not sure how far along you are with your book, but I think you need to revise your CRs up.

That list was from a while ago.

Its currently:
Demi: CR 21-24
Lesser: CR 25-28
Intermediate: CR 29-32
Greater: CR 33-36

All gods have mythic forms accessible on their home planes.

I should also mention my gods & monsters are MUCH tougher for their CR's and you would need to increase them by 25% before they even come close to their weaker WotC counterparts.

Fizban's high level monsters were weak sauce compared to what I'm cooking up. That Fizban's Tiamat would be about CR 23 in my book.

So if I was to detail Zeus he would be CR 36, effectively equivalent to a WotC CR of 44 AND have mythic form (on his home plane), plus he'll be casting epic spells.

When I start posting previews of these monsters and you see the damage they are dealing players will s*** a proverbial brick, if you'll pardon my harsh language.

Don't worry, I have this epic stuff covered amigo.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I have not seen the monsters, but WotC trend has been to make high CR monsters not weaker, so I wasn't expecting them to get stronger.

I thought they were reportedly going to make the monsters in Fizban's and Mordenkainen's tougher.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Personally I think this is a bad idea, but I know from previous conversations with you that you will not change. I did something similar with my first batch of 5e epic monsters and it just created more confusion. I came to the realization that it is better to except what is provided and just raise the CR of my monsters. I understand it is to late to change, but I can't help but offer my 2 cents.

Well I wouldn't say its too late to change, I just don't see the point of continuing with their flawed methodology that really messes up their own encounter difficulty table.

That said I do have a slight abstraction element in place in that CR itself will become less important and the divine tier of the monster will become a much easier way of gauging a god or monster.

A given monster might be CR 21, another CR 23 but both are in the demigod tier, for instance. 1 Demigod = Hard challenge for 4 epic level PCs.

 

[dave2008]

I thought they were reportedly going to make the monsters in Fizban's and Mordenkainen's tougher.

No they did not, and I don't think that was ever the plan. They added great wyrm dragons (which conceptually are cool), which have a higher CR; however, they actually have less hit points and do less damage (with their breathweapon) than the ancient dragon! The only then take makes them stronger is the mythic trait - which doesn't effect CR.

Ancient Red, CR 24, 546 HP, 91 fire damage
Great Wyrm Red, CR 27, 533* HP, 78 fire damage

*double w/ mythic trait

 

[dave2008]

That list was from a while ago.

Its currently:
Demi: CR 21-24
Lesser: CR 25-28
Intermediate: CR 29-32
Greater: CR 33-36

All gods have mythic forms accessible on their home planes.

I should also mention my gods & monsters are MUCH tougher for their CR's and you would need to increase them by 25% before they even come close to their weaker WotC counterparts.

Fizban's high level monsters were weak sauce compared to what I'm cooking up. That Fizban's Tiamat would be about CR 23 in my book.

So if I was to detail Zeus he would be CR 36, effectively equivalent to a WotC CR of 44 AND have mythic form (on his home plane), plus he'll be casting epic spells.

When I start posting previews of these monsters and you see the damage they are dealing players will s*** a proverbial brick, if you'll pardon my harsh language.

Don't worry, I have this epic stuff covered amigo.

I know you have epic covered, I just admit I am unsure how you are relating it back to O5e. I don't really care for myself, but the message seems a bit confused right now. However, that is primarily because I don't have the whole story!

Like I said in my other post, I don't agree with your CR being 25% different from WotC CR.

 

[dave2008]

Well I wouldn't say its too late to change, I just don't see the point of continuing with their flawed methodology that really messes up their own encounter difficulty table.

I think it is a flawed idea to replace a system used by over 50million people. You can't beat that inertia. What is the benefit of having two CR systems? How can that possibly be a good thing. Your system will not overpower the existing one, it just can't IMO.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound so harsh - and this will be my last push for using the existing paradigm

Not sure what you mean by the CR messing with the encounter building. The encounter builder uses XP, not CR - this is particularly important with mythic monsters. They are related, but also different. And the encounter builder actually does work (for a certain set of players). The bigger issue is the names they gave the levels of difficulty. What they call "deadly," doesn't fit the definition of deadly as written or in the math, IMO. However, if you make a truly deadly fight (75-100% of your daily XP budget) then a lot of the misconception of the encounter builder goes away (in terms of deadliness).
---
EDIT: I can't remember if I showed this to you before, but if you use the XP budget to make a truly deadly fight as shown in:
It's not Deadly, its Epic! You begin to understand that a solo fight can be deadly in 5e with the RAW math. You just have to use a lot higher CR monsters than you would think.

Notice a CR 24 Ancient Red dragon is an epic (aka deadly) encounter for 4 lvl 15 PCs. It is not a challenge for 4 lvl 20 PCs like some people think.

By this math Strahd should have been around CR20-21 in CoS instead of CR 15.

When I use the term epic/deadly I mean a 50% chance of a TPK or there about. You can do that with the default WotC CR and encounter building rules - you just need to look at daily XP budgets, not per encounter budgets.

That said I do have a slight abstraction element in place in that CR itself will become less important and the divine tier of the monster will become a much easier way of gauging a god or monster.

A given monster might be CR 21, another CR 23 but both are in the demigod tier, for instance. 1 Demigod = Hard challenge for 4 epic level PCs.

I do think that is a good idea. I've abandoned CR really for my epic monsters. I say for each exalted tier above, it is equivalent to 3 of the tier below. So an exalted rank 2 monsters it equivalent to 3 rank 1 (demigod) PCs (or monsters).

 

[le Redoutable]

( likely obsolete but let's try all the same )
I personally use ten power levels :
10 Cosmic Powers ( Marvel Faserip CL5000 and Beyond Range )
9 Titans ( Celestial Bodies )
8 Gods
7 Epic ( Olympic )
6 Superb
5 Excellent
4 Good
3 Mediocre
2 Poor
1 Weak

with stats caps of
10 42
9 36
8 30
7 25
6 18
5 14
4 9
3 6
2 3
1 1

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dave2008 mate!

No they did not, and I don't think that was ever the plan. They added great wyrm dragons (which conceptually are cool), which have a higher CR; however, they actually have less hit points and do less damage (with their breathweapon) than the ancient dragon! The only then take makes them stronger is the mythic trait - which doesn't effect CR.

Ancient Red, CR 24, 546 HP, 91 fire damage
Great Wyrm Red, CR 27, 533* HP, 78 fire damage

*double w/ mythic trait

Yes they have made a bit of a mess of it, personally I don't think they really care that much about the Epic Level stuff. Its such a small fraction of their audience.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I know you have epic covered, I just admit I am unsure how you are relating it back to O5e. I don't really care for myself, but the message seems a bit confused right now. However, that is primarily because I don't have the whole story!

Well, you can use my CR's in tandem with the WotC Encounter Difficulty table, but you can't use their CR's with that - it doesn't work.

Like I said in my other post, I don't agree with your CR being 25% different from WotC CR.

They have messed up the epic level CRs - I'm simply fixing it for them.

But you can avoid CR altogether and just use divine rank equivalent.

My Demigods: CR 21-24, WotC 'effective Demigod rank' CR 25-30
My Lesser Gods: CR 25-28, WotC 'effective Lesser Gods rank' CR 31-35
etc.

 

[nevin]

Unless your players are going to become gods it's all silly. I'd never introduce anything beyond say a Zues. Dieties Like Night, Fate, Hel, the elder gods of the babylonian myths that got locked out of the new creation, and creator Deities just shouldn't come into play. Even in the Myths they were the powers that even Gods Like Zues and Odin wouldn't or couldn't mess with. They were fundamental parts of the Universe. To mess with them was to mess with an intelligent portion of reality. There should just be things so powerful that directly confronting them is game over.