Cosmic Deity power levels in 5E...

[Upper_Krust]

I think it is a flawed idea to replace a system used by over 50million people. You can't beat that inertia.

That's true, but I don't have to sway 50 million opinions, just the hundreds that play epic level, who already understand the WotC system has flaws at epic levels.

What is the benefit of having two CR systems? How can that possibly be a good thing. Your system will not overpower the existing one, it just can't IMO.

It only needs those few hundred or so DMs/Players to see the benefit.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound so harsh - and this will be my last push for using the existing paradigm

Push away my friend - I am thick skinned and I like a good debate. Don't worry about hurting my feelings.

Not sure what you mean by the CR messing with the encounter building. The encounter builder uses XP, not CR - this is particularly important with mythic monsters. They are related, but also different. And the encounter builder actually does work (for a certain set of players). The bigger issue is the names they gave the levels of difficulty. What they call "deadly," doesn't fit the definition of deadly as written or in the math, IMO. However, if you make a truly deadly fight (75-100% of your daily XP budget) then a lot of the misconception of the encounter builder goes away (in terms of deadliness).
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EDIT: I can't remember if I showed this to you before, but if you use the XP budget to make a truly deadly fight as shown in:
It's not Deadly, its Epic! You begin to understand that a solo fight can be deadly in 5e with the RAW math. You just have to use a lot higher CR monsters than you would think.

Notice a CR 24 Ancient Red dragon is an epic (aka deadly) encounter for 4 lvl 15 PCs. It is not a challenge for 4 lvl 20 PCs like some people think.

To be honest its no skin off my nose for me just to use WotCs crazy numbers. I don't see the big hullabaloo.

By this math Strahd should have been around CR20-21 in CoS instead of CR 15.

When I use the term epic/deadly I mean a 50% chance of a TPK or there about. You can do that with the default WotC CR and encounter building rules - you just need to look at daily XP budgets, not per encounter budgets.

I do think that is a good idea. I've abandoned CR really for my epic monsters. I say for each exalted tier above, it is equivalent to 3 of the tier below. So an exalted rank 2 monsters it equivalent to 3 rank 1 (demigod) PCs (or monsters).

I don't see the massive difference between changing the Daily XP Budget and fixing monster CRs. But I'll have a think about it.

 

[dave2008]

Well, you can use my CR's in tandem with the WotC Encounter Difficulty table, but you can't use their CR's with that - it doesn't work.

But it does work. It is a misconception, IMO, that it doesn't.

They have messed up the epic level CRs - I'm simply fixing it for them.

I agree they are messed up, but I just think the should make the monsters tougher (higher CR), not change how they calculate CR.

But you can avoid CR altogether and just use divine rank equivalent.

My Demigods: CR 21-24, WotC 'effective Demigod rank' CR 25-30
My Lesser Gods: CR 25-28, WotC 'effective Lesser Gods rank' CR 31-35
etc.

I look forward to seeing how it all works!

 

[dave2008]

Unless your players are going to become gods it's all silly. I'd never introduce anything beyond say a Zues. Dieties Like Night, Fate, Hel, the elder gods of the babylonian myths that got locked out of the new creation, and creator Deities just shouldn't come into play. Even in the Myths they were the powers that even Gods Like Zues and Odin wouldn't or couldn't mess with. They were fundamental parts of the Universe. To mess with them was to mess with an intelligent portion of reality. There should just be things so powerful that directly confronting them is game over.

I tend to agree. I am not sure what UK is doing with his 5e version, but his 3e version allowed players to become gods. It doesn't seem like he is doing that this time, but I am not sure. That is one of my bigger confusions about the project at this point.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy le Redoutable!

( likely obsolete but let's try all the same )
I personally use ten power levels :
10 Cosmic Powers ( Marvel Faserip CL5000 and Beyond Range )
9 Titans ( Celestial Bodies )
8 Gods
7 Epic ( Olympic )
6 Superb
5 Excellent
4 Good
3 Mediocre
2 Poor
1 Weak

with stats caps of
10 42
9 36
8 30
7 25
6 18
5 14
4 9
3 6
2 3
1 1

I love the old Marvel FASERIP system:

Immortality

I'm trying to retain as much of core 5E as I can, stats beyond 30 might mess up the maths, of course someone like Hercules might have a strength beyond 30, but that won't necessarily manifest as a numerical 31 or higher. It might be something else.

 

[dave2008]

I don't see the massive difference between changing the Daily XP Budget and fixing monster CRs. But I'll have a think about it.

To clarify, it is not changing the daily XP budet, it is just using more of it for one encounter. Currently a "deadly" encounter used 33% of the XP budget IIRC. The epic encounter Iinked to uses 50-100% of the XP budget. If I were doing this I would simply add one or two tiers over "deadly." PF2 uses the terms severe and extreme. So I would say:

deadly = 33% of XP budget (the current highest in the guidelines)
severe = 50-75% of XP budget
extreme = 75-100% of XP budget

So you are not changing anything with the existing CR or encounter building system, you are just adding to it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there nevin!

Unless your players are going to become gods it's all silly.

Maybe they are...of course lots of fun media is silly - anime, comics (and affiliated tv/movies), video games etc.

I'd never introduce anything beyond say a Zues.

But then you miss out on battling the TITANS!

Dieties Like Night, Fate, Hel, the elder gods of the babylonian myths that got locked out of the new creation, and creator Deities just shouldn't come into play.

The more the merrier. No point arbitrarily cherry picking, just present a framework for the rules and if people want to try it then they have that option.

Even in the Myths they were the powers that even Gods Like Zues and Odin wouldn't or couldn't mess with. They were fundamental parts of the Universe. To mess with them was to mess with an intelligent portion of reality.

But what if I have my Anti-Matter Armour +6 that we looted in a different universe and a spear forged from unreality in the cracks between dimensions...can I mess with them then?

There should just be things so powerful that directly confronting them is game over.

...unless you are so powerful yourself. Ultimately, its all just relative.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I tend to agree. I am not sure what UK is doing with his 5e version, but his 3e version allowed players to become gods. It doesn't seem like he is doing that this time, but I am not sure. That is one of my bigger confusions about the project at this point.

Yes the PCs become gods. There are no 'Levels' above 20.

 

[dave2008]

I don't see the massive difference between changing the Daily XP Budget and fixing monster CRs. But I'll have a think about it.

There is also a perception issue. If I look at your CR 24 monster and a WotC CR 24 monster I will see that yours is significantly more powerful. My first thought will be hey: this guy doesn't know what he is doing; not: hey these will work better with the encounter guidelines (which I don't think is correct anyway).

 

[Upper_Krust]

To clarify, it is not changing the daily XP budet, it is just using more of it for one encounter.

Yes it changes the rules by re-writing one of the core tables in the DMG...will 50 million players adopt this new table do you think?

Currently a "deadly" encounter used 33% of the XP budget IIRC. The epic encounter Iinked to uses 50-100% of the XP budget. If I were doing this I would simply add one or two tiers over "deadly." PF2 uses the terms severe and extreme. So I would say:

deadly = 33% of XP budget (the current highest in the guidelines)
severe = 50-75% of XP budget
extreme = 75-100% of XP budget

So you are not changing anything with the existing CR or encounter building system, you are just adding to it.

I'm still making up my mind on it all.

Challenge Rating is just a number, but here's the thing.

The WotC (CR 20+) monsters are a bunch of milquetoast wasters. Lets take Orcus for example. That stat-block does not simply represent what they consider a CR 26 threat - it represents one of the most powerful Demon Princes who is a defacto Lesser God in the Abyss. I can't recall exactly, but some of his attacks do about 10 damage or something. WotC Orcus is a LAUGHING STOCK to Epic Players who will eat him up and **** him out ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.

...and don't talk to me about the Tarrasque, the official stats are hopeless, how does that represent any threat to an Epic Party. It doesn't. It'll be mincemeat in a round.

The whole fundamental difficulty ascribed to "CR 20+" official monsters is crazy. Players do not FEAR epic level monsters because they are complete pushovers.

My plan is to stop the rot, make EPIC great again, give the monsters back their mojo and put the FEAR back into high-level players. You can't do that and retain the WotC comparisons.

The official monsters are too easily dispatched to warrant being Demon Princes, Demigods or whatever.

When I look at Orcus' stat block I can't design a Demon Prince to be that weak. It doesn't make logical sense to me.

You are worried about the arbitrary number given to these monsters, but the bigger picture is what should these monsters (of a given CR) represent...pushovers or challenges.

I suspect maybe you might lambast me using a slightly different Challenge Rating methodology, but at the same time you'd either buff the official Orcus stats or make a completely new stat-block for him.

 

[Upper_Krust]

There is also a perception issue. If I look at your CR 24 monster and a WotC CR 24 monster I will see that yours is significantly more powerful. My first thought will be hey: this guy doesn't know what he is doing; not: hey these will work better with the encounter guidelines (which I don't think is correct anyway).

But the flipside is you'll have a CR 26 Orcus who is a Demon Prince/Lesser Power going down in 1 round.

So the question is do I have to make all my Demon Princes weaklings because that's how WotC do it?