[Cosmology] Law vs. Chaos main planar conflict?

[ShaggySpellsword]

I once played in an Oriental Adventures campaign based on The Romance of the Three Kingdoms. This applies, I promise.

The entire fell of the game was very obviously Law vs. Chaos where the overriding point was to protect the Imperial Way of life and put down all usurpers and rebels. When the Yellow Turban Rebellion popped up they had a number of CG aligned members, all of whom we, being agents of the Han Emperor, put down along with their CE and CN buddies. We didn't do it because it was the right thing to do, and we even tried to turn them away from their rebellion before killing them, but in the end, when they didn't relent, they had to die. Why? Because the Powers that Be told us to.

How does this apply to your situation? On one side you have the Planes of the Celestial Buerocracy. Don't look at Celestial as "good-alligned" It is a rigid hierarchy of outsiders and gods that dictate how the world/nature/relationships work. These are the forces of order and balance-making the sun rise, fires burn, the royalty rule over the peasantry, and the strong rule the weak. They are made up of both Devils and Archons-The Archons ruling over Laws of Nature and Civil Laws (Thou shalt not kill, thou shall not steal, etc.) while the Devils keep social/economic laws (tax collection of souls as they die, execution of those who defy the beurocracy, the divine right of a king to do anything to his peasants that he wants.) So long as the devils don't break the rules, the archons have no desire to do anything against them.

On the other hand you have a Great Rebellion/Anarchy. Basically a camp of Demons and Eladrins that do wahtever they can to fight against the power. They all wanna see the Beuracracy come down, and while they occasionally work at cross purposes (the nature of chaos is conflict) they all try and bring down the man, weather it be through murder, theft, rebellion, or socialism (who says the kings should rule?) All of the Chaotic Outsiders are constantly inciting rebellions allowing each to support rebellion in their own ways (massacres, peaceful protests, looting.)

As long as Law is winning, the world works as it should and the kingdoms of the world endure, if the balance leans toward chaos? The Nature starts being screwy and not following the rules!!! (The sun rising in the west? How can this be?!?!?) Skys turn pink and Lemonade rains from the heavens! The neutral outsiders and elementals are on both sides of the fence, the outsiders often taking roles as advisors, keeping the Lawful beings from being TOO tyrannical (though still just a little bit) and the Chaotic beings from TOTAL anarchy (though the chaotic beings will only listen to friends/advisors so far)

To sum up: Order and Chaos are the two extremes with good or evil only being the happenstance methods of either your desire for The World to work correctly, according to rules and letting everyone have a distinct place, or your desire for every day to bring VERY new things, with year long seasons and freedom to do as you please, to whomever you please, whenever you please.

 

[Particle_Man]

Just junk all outsiders except formians and slaadi.

Bugs vs. Frogs, baby!

 

[xenoflare]

Hi, sorry for rambling...

Just paraphrasing a point from some of my research on demonology in Hinduism; Dr Gail Sutherland has pointed out that the cosmology of the Mahabharata epic in Hinduism involves an overwhelming focus on law vs. chaos. This cosmology displaces the responsibility for the control of ashuras (as demonic forces of chaos) from the realm of the devas (as celestial forces of law) to the realm of man. While the ashuras and devas may war in their planes, it is the role of human society to regulate chaos.. Order must be upheld in this cosmic relationship usually through the role of mortals (or in our gaming case, the Prime).

Yudhistira, the most righteous of the Pandava brothers (i think he'll be some Epic Half-celestial Seer) addresses a demon who seeks to eat some children along with him with this rebuke in the Mahabharata:

"Your righteousness is disintegrating, fool, and you don't see it. The humans, the animals, the Gandharvas (avorals in DnD), the Raksasas, the birds and the cattle all live off men, and so do you. Your world prospers by the prosperity of ours. The deities grieve along with the grieving world but they flourish when worshipped with oblations and ancestor offerings. We are the herdsmen and protectors of the kingdom, raksasa. If the kingdom is unprotected, how can there be good fortune, how can there be happiness? A Raksasa must never be disrespectful toward a sinless king and we have never committed the slightest offence, man-eater."

cosmic laws have to be followed in this cosmology, which the raksasa refuses to follow - and in so doing, he renounces his dharma as a demon, and his demonic powers forsake him, and he loses his prowess and is slain.

but there are also other cases of deviation and subversion- where a demon becomes an ascetic, virtuous of manner and conduct, pure of thought and heart, and is rebuked by his own father for being a traitor and false demon, is warned by priests for being subversive against the natural order. This kindly demon converts an entire kingdom of ogres and demons to the worship of Lord Shiva, and the cosmos rejects them, and the sun burns them all... in so doing, these demons are destroyed for their piety. (some say the priests fear for their own loss of relevance in a world where demons are virtuous... the chaotic evil demons, by being chaotic against chaos, become lawful good, and the boundaries of good and evil, law and chaos are broken - the system cannot allow these "others", so useful for internal harmony, to become internalized, and thus destroys them.)

but they are also emancipated from their brooding forms, and transcend their demonic aspect. they become gods, they become deities that protect the people they used to eat.. and they become worshipped as bringers of rain, slayers of disease-spirits. in that sense, their adherence to the doctrine of rebelling agains "chaos" - a chaotic act, or is it a lawful one? - allowed them to transcend the limitations of illusionary reality, and to comprehend truth.

This of course presupposes a series of cosmic laws in your campaign that already exist.. but nothing is fixed. Through adherences to these laws, the dissonance between chaos and law is shattered.. this philosophy is very much summed up in Hinduism (following dharmas of caste and life-path), Islam (being obedient to the will of God), and Buddhism (law of cause and effect). Demons are usually those who refuse to follow the law.. and in so doing, gain power from the system as "others", as "outsiders", deviant beings who disobey reality and have to be beaten up by heroes haha..

so.. i guess to bring it back to your campaign.. is truth law, or is truth chaos? can fiends become celestials, is permanence dominant, or is reality protean and shifting? there exists a fine balance, i suppose, between the truths of eternal law - something is something, but at the same time, something can become something else. law.. and chaos.. both exist in tandem with each other.

 

[Li Shenron]

My main problem is how to explain good working alongside evil in either of these two forces. I have to balance the ideas that Law really does see itself as working for the greater good (though being tyrannical at times), while Chaos sees itself as working for individual freedom (even if that freedom means the freedom to refuse to do good).

"There is no survival without Law" says the archon.

"There is no evolution without Chaos" says the eladrin.

 

[Dogbrain]

They all wanna see the Beuracracy come down, and while they occasionally work at cross purposes (the nature of chaos is conflict) they all try and bring down the man, weather it be through murder, theft, rebellion, or socialism (who says the kings should rule?)

Socialism? Socialism is the ultimate expression of order/tyranny. The state runs all things. All people are merely appendages to the state.

 

[Remathilis]

Another Way to look at it...

A L/C cosmology might consist of a single lawful plane, a utopia of perfect order. Lawful guardians watch over the plane, guarding it from the influence of chaos. Some of the residents believe law is the best way to foster peace (LG), but others view it as a tool of enslavement (LE). THus, a "shadow war" among the lawfuls exist, but is kept in check by the guardians of ultimate law (LN)

Chaos, on the other hand, is just that. A collection of planes, too numberous to count (and ever changing) exist, independent of one another. They war with law, as well as themselves, ultimately keeping thier own numbers in check. CG's act as liberators from lawful oppression, CN's don't care, CEs promote pure, destructive chaos.

Neutrality can be some manner of corrupted lawful or reformed chaotics, or some other manner of beast entirily (perhaps some manner of fey?)

 

[Dogbrain]

Neutrality can be some manner of corrupted lawful or reformed chaotics, or some other manner of beast entirily (perhaps some manner of fey?)

Why not "reformed lawful" or "corrupted chaotics"? Why the bigoted approach to law and chaos?

 

[Dogbrain]

Why, Wise One, do the mortals cling so much to the Law Lords who enslave them?

They are enslaved not only by the Law Lords but also by their own fear. Mortals are weak beings, individually. It is so very easy to end their existence that one can terminate thousands of them completely by accident. They can be stronger when working as a group. They can learn to be stronger as individuals. It is far easier for them to gain strenght in the former way than in the latter. We call this the "Temptation of Organization". The Law Lords exploit this temptation, or weak predisposition, that mortals have in order to enslave them.

 

[Dogbrain]

Another Way to look at it...

A L/C cosmology might consist of a single lawful plane, a utopia of perfect order. Lawful guardians watch over the plane, guarding it from the influence of chaos. Some of the residents believe law is the best way to foster peace (LG), but others view it as a tool of enslavement (LE). THus, a "shadow war" among the lawfuls exist, but is kept in check by the guardians of ultimate law (LN)

A dystopia of perfect tyranny, you mean, where individualism is obliterated and creativity punished, where any and all who do not toe the line and Keep up with the Joneses like good little drones feel the wrath of the Lawful Guardians. Better that a family be exterminated than the overall order of the community be imperiled.

Law has no need for mercy. Indeed, mercy is a chaotic infection that must be purged from the perfectly even-handed, perfectly identical, perfectly systematic application of order. Mercy demands exceptions be made. Law must not tolerate exceptions.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

How about the premise that both this "law" and this "chaos" are, at the very best, essentially uncaring about what mortals would consider "good". Order wants order, period. Chaos wants chaos, period. The mortals are their victims, puppets, possibly servants, but ultimately they are irrelevant to the great goal. Mortals only matter to the Great Powers inasmuch as they are useful to the goal of "law" or of "chaos". Vorlons and Shadows, essentially.

Since most mortals tend to be rather feeble beings as individuals, most of them will tend to see the "law" side as being mostly "good". "Law" exploits this to the hilt, but ultimately, the "good of all" is irrelevant to their ultimate goal of total order, total system. Likewise, those mortals who are firm proponents of "individual liberty" may see the "chaos" side as representing "good"--especially in regions the "law" side has ended up supporting tyranny, but ultimately, "liberty" as we understand it is also irrelevant, since even the most individualistic mortal must have some sort of biological "order" within it to survive. That set of systems and process must ultimately be disposed of. Indeed, since so much of matter adheres to natural order, matter is to be disposed of.

Thus, should either side actually win, it will mean extinction for mortal life. That doesn't matter to the Great Powers, who see this mortality as horribly infected with elements of the other side. They might be temporarily useful, but ultimately, those nasty corruptions would have to go.

Corruption according to "law": Free will; learning (a type of change, after all); creativity; love, etc.

Corruption according to "chaos": Material existence; family, friendship, honor, music, etc.

Of course this is utterly incoherent. Learning is necessary for humans or other beings to produce music, create families, maintain honor, or live in ordered societies. And, love is a necessary product of functional families (though not necessarily the Hollywood Romantic Comedy kind of love).

Similarly, all of the supposed goals of chaos are dependent upon their corruptions.

And, since both the law and chaos powers are going to, in some way, be recognizable as actual entities, they will have at least some of the characteristics listed above (learning, free will, the appearance of creativity (sure, the law side could have a standard series of responses and reactions for various situations, but such things would have, at a minimum, had to be created at one time or another, thereby requiring creativity), etc. Similarly, things like continuity and consistency of essence are necessary for the chaos powers to be recognizable as entities rather than impersonal forces. And it's necessary for them to be entities rather than forces or the entire anti-human cosmology falls apart since they are forces to be harnessed and used for our purposes rather than entities that would try to use us for their purposes.

Of course, the Great Powers do not bother to tell their mortal pawns of their ultimate goals.

Perhaps there are rebellious Powers: Lords of Law infected with chaotic traits like love; Lords of Chaos infected with lawful traits like friendship. Maybe that's the one defense mortals ultimately have. They partake so fully of both natures that they can change the natures of the Great Powers (or lesser Great Powers), probably accidentally.

It's a cold, unpleasant, and inhuman cosmology, but think of the shivers up your players' spines when they discover what the real deal is.

More problematically, it posits as the primary cosmic conflict, one which any rational being would respond to by saying, "a pox on both your houses." In a good/evil conflict, there are at least apparently rational reasons for choosing the side of evil or for being evil on the side of "good." (We value the appearance of or reputation for virtue rather than virtue itself, etc). In the cosmology that you are proposing, no rational being could possibly choose either of the primary sides. Even balance is a chimera because what rational beings would want is NOT a balance between the opposing forces but a cessation of conflict where they go away.

And, perhaps more to the point, the obvious rational decision re-intoduces a good/bad (since you obviously don't want to call the other side evil) conflict. If the vorlons aren't good (since Kosh died) and the Shadows aren't good, they both become bad and Sheridan represents the force and perspective of good. So, you haven't really made a real law/chaos conflict in the cosmology; you've just removed all of the good transcendental powers and made good a solely human/mortal invention.

If you want something that will really look like a law/chaos conflict, the answer isn't in any incoherent Melinbournian cosmology; the answer is to make one side clearly a bad choice and the other clearly less bad (but not remotely good). The Warhammer 40k millieu is a good example of this. The forces of Chaos are clearly bad. On the other hand, it's pretty much impossible to pretend that the Empire is good. There are no good forces in the world, but the empire is not so bad as that its victory would be worse than its defeat. So it's possible for rational beings to actually believe in and fight for the empire and even to justify its existence and all the while not be under the illusion that it's good. (And there are reasons to take the side of Chaos too). If one, however, makes the cosmos so that neither side in the conflict is remotely palatable, rational creatures will check out of it and thereby create the good/bad conflict that you didn't want.