[Cosmology] Law vs. Chaos main planar conflict?

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think Bendris's point captures the essence of my objection as well. It's all well and good to talk about compelling conformity to a cosmic contract but no characters and no gods are ever likely to be in the position of upholding a generic, contentless cosmic/social contract. Such discussions take place in the context of a particular just or unjust social contract. Characters traditionally designated lawful good are just as likely as those designated chaotic good to balk at compelling compliance with a social contract that requires the sacrifice of a million babies a day to the god-emperor. And characters traditionally designated chaotic good are just as likely as those designated lawful evil to support compelling compliance with a social contract that prohibits the arbitrary murder and subsequent sacrifice of individuals to the dark gods of slaughter and bestiality.

And given the fact that societies inherently have some structure simply by virtue of being societies, it is hard to believe that the gods of law or chaos could be indifferent to the structure of any society either. Some social structures allow more individual autonomy than others and some structures support arbitrary and capricious rule. But all have structures. Even Mr. Kurtz's band of savages in the Heart of Darkness had a social structure.

Your post seems to implicitly acknowledge this point when you say that CGs may unwittingly be fighting for the wrong team because of the tendency to equate good with law in this context. (Personally I think that tendency exists because they are not entirely separate ideas). The difficulty, I think comes when evaluating the deities motives and how they go about it. It is hard to think that the ideas of good and bad social orders will not play a part in their thinking and thus take the cosmic situation back to including prominent ideas of good and evil.

That's why I think the inverse of the situation you're proposing is the only way to really emphasize law vs. chaos. If the only viable choice is between compelling obedience to a bad social order and aquiescing to the destruction of all life in chaos, then there is no question of which social order is good.

Good point, Bendris. I revise my view accordingly.

 

[Snapdragyn]

If the only viable choice is between compelling obedience to a bad social order and aquiescing to the destruction of all life in chaos, then there is no question of which social order is good

I have never said that this is the choice, however; in fact, I have specifically stated that it is not. I think you do raise a good point about the specifics of the social/cosmic contract at work (which I see as something probably far more detailed than just the basic framework of 'conflict exists on this axis'), but you also seem to be stuck on equating law with good, & chaos with evil. You even say that you do not see them (law/good; chaos/evil) as entirely separate things; that's exactly the point I wish to emphasis (that they in fact are).

 

[Ibram]

I'd say just pour jet fuel all over the alignment system then set it on fire...

IMC there is no alignment system, each player developes his own morality. Mortal creatures are not confined to any one specific alignment, and otherworldy creatures are more alien then outright evil (along the lines of HPL)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I have never said that this is the choice, however; in fact, I have specifically stated that it is not. I think you do raise a good point about the specifics of the social/cosmic contract at work (which I see as something probably far more detailed than just the basic framework of 'conflict exists on this axis'), but you also seem to be stuck on equating law with good, & chaos with evil. You even say that you do not see them (law/good; chaos/evil) as entirely separate things; that's exactly the point I wish to emphasis (that they in fact are).

I understand that the bad social order vs. anarchy isn't the conundrum you're proposing. I'm just saying that making a good order a non-option is the only real way to remove questions of good and evil from the equation and have a straightforward law/chaos conflict.

As for equating good with law and chaos with evil, I'll admit that I've done that a bit in this thread. Intellectually, however, I think I can make an equally good case for the opposite by emphasizing the need for freedom (the purpose of a good order is freedom etc) and growth. On the whole, I don't think that law and chaos as traditionally expressed in D&D can represent a coherent philosophy (the big problem with the Elric saga's take on them (which BTW is more coherent and subtly different than D&D's) is that both are equally and absolutely destructive of life). Instead, they incorporate a few dozen different and, in some cases, mutually exclusive or contradictory ideas.

From the sounds of things, your defenders of the cosmic contract vs. hippies, powermongers, and anarchists conflict could work and be very interesting. However, I'm not sure that it maps directly and coherently to D&D law and chaos.

BTW, are you sure that contract theory is the best way to simulate what you're going for. I would think that Natural Law or Divine Command theories might be more appropriate.

 

[tarchon]

I prefer more elemental cosmic conflicts, Wilma vs. Betty, Roleplay vs. Rollplay, UN*X vs. Wintel, etc.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

First I haven't read every post before this one so, if someone has suggested this then oh well.

My Dm has, or rather was, running a game where a law vs chaos war broke out. He had expounded for a while about how that was a core to his world, but nobody ever paid attention. As we played we saw or were apart of Devil on demon or celestials battling other cesestials. He only ever had good/good or evil /evil battles. I don' think that he could figure out how best to go about it either.

My suggestion is this:

If you want to have law vs chaos and not split them up in to 4 different planes then just have two. Group the LG and LE together and like wise with the chaotics. Each group can be over seen by one ruler. From time to time a new on takes over and tries to do things their way. A real world equvilant would be poloticians. Republicans vs democarates. A new ruler is elected and they put their ideals into fighting the other side. This sets things up for lots of inter plane fighting also because the good outsiders hate the evil outsiders probebly as much as they hate the L/C.

I think that this is also great material for future games. Pc's who call outsiders and have to pay them for their aid might be called into: take out rivals, raid other planes etc.

That's all for now.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

If you want to have law vs chaos and not split them up in to 4 different planes then just have two.

I concur and suggest going one step further: Use "layers" to define the different "homelands" of the various alignments. In addition, rather than having these layer's being like a cake (as represented in "planar art" prior to 3E), instead have them form patterns. For instance, the layers of the Lawful plane are arrainged as an Orrery Plane, with the continual "orbit" shifting the dominance between the various factions of Law based on proximity to the Material Plane. Being Lawful, this pattern will be as clockwork, dependable and accurately timed. In contrast, the Chaotic layers would be akin to the Myriad cosmology, being clustered in an erratic fashion with different layers "bubbling up to the top" to become the first (and dominant) layer. The ebb and flow of this "bubbling" makes it impossible to foresee which layer will be the next dominant layer, when the change will occur, and when the next change will follow (as befits Chaos).

This could result in a system akin to the Astrology rules in Relics & Rituals II, except instead of being based on months, it is based on years, decades, and even centuries (possibly millenia if you have an all-elf party and you give them their 2E lifespans back, but that's definately a niche-campaign).

 

[Gez]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

In a Law vs. Chaos conflict, Good becomes Balance, and Evil becomes Imbalance.

The celestials will fight to keep a balance between Law and Chaos. When Law is stronger, the Archons go to vacation, and the Eladrins arrive. And vice-versa.

The fiends will fight to break the balance between Law and Chaos. Devils will do everything to make Law win, Demons will do everything to make Chaos win, and Daemons will side with anyone who seems the strongest side, hoping to provide the critical edge that will allow one side to win.

Formians, modrons, inevitable, and slaadi will fight as usual.

Rilmani will ally with Guardinals.