[Cosmology] Law vs. Chaos main planar conflict?

Dogbrain said:
Why not "reformed lawful" or "corrupted chaotics"? Why the bigoted approach to law and chaos?

Mostly because law and chaos are arbitrary, incoherent concepts that incorporate and mix parts of what are generally thought of as good and evil. So, in order to make sense of them, people bracket off bits until they look like semi-coherent concepts that people could actually believe in and that leaves them with either a good or a bad impression of law or chaos. (Judging by your other posts, you seem to have an antipathy towards the concepts of order and organization that indicates that you do the same thing in the opposite direction--or at least have a tendency to do it).

It all springs from the mistake of creating the game-world-only concepts of "law" and "chaos" to begin with.
 

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Dogbrain said:
How about the premise that both this "law" and this "chaos" are, at the very best, essentially uncaring about what mortals would consider "good". Order wants order, period. Chaos wants chaos, period. The mortals are their victims, puppets, possibly servants, but ultimately they are irrelevant to the great goal. Mortals only matter to the Great Powers inasmuch as they are useful to the goal of "law" or of "chaos". Vorlons and Shadows, essentially.

:D that little conflict was one of the first to spring to my mind on this topic. (I called it by the way, that the vorlons could be no better than the shadows, just on the other side, and my bf didn't think it would be done...) There will be those who actually care about humans in each camp (the lg and cgs) but they should be in a minority.

I particularly like the idea that neither side is really good for the mortal races in the long run. It easy to see chaos as dangerous and order as safe, but at the end of the day true order doesn't include life.

I think the exact division of ideals considered orderly and chaotic would need tweaking, but I like your way of thinking on this sort of cosmology.

I particularly like the idea of characters eventually getting to be high enough up to realize all this. add a nice twist to a perfectly happy crusading bunch of dogooders. ;)

Kahuna Burger
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
Of course this is utterly incoherent. Learning is necessary for humans or other beings to produce music, create families, maintain honor, or live in ordered societies. And, love is a necessary product of functional families (though not necessarily the Hollywood Romantic Comedy kind of love).

So what is your point? All of those goals are irrelevant to the Great Powers. What matters the goal of a pebble in your shoe?


Similarly, all of the supposed goals of chaos are dependent upon their corruptions.

And? That's part of the whole point of the cosmology I propose.


More problematically, it posits as the primary cosmic conflict, one which any rational being would respond to by saying, "a pox on both your houses."

And exactly HOW do you intend to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the ordinary mortals will have the FAINTEST idea regarding the actual goals of these lofty Powers?

In the cosmology that you are proposing, no rational being could possibly choose either of the primary sides.

Prove that these "rational beings" actually are clued in to the way things really work.

Even balance is a chimera because what rational beings would want is NOT a balance between the opposing forces but a cessation of conflict where they go away.
.

Yes, it makes for quite a lofty goal, doesn't it?

If you want something that will really look like a law/chaos conflict, the answer isn't in any incoherent Melinbournian cosmology; the answer is to make one side clearly a bad choice and the other clearly less bad (but not remotely good).

It's only "obvious" to you. You're letting your prejudice dictate your choices, quite ironic for one who hurls around "rational" as much as you do.

If one, however, makes the cosmos so that neither side in the conflict is remotely palatable, rational creatures will check out of it and thereby create the good/bad conflict that you didn't want.

Prove that these "rational" creatures even know what is going on. Prove that it is even POSSIBLE to "check out of it". Prove that the cosmos does not rely upon the conflict to exist in the first place.

Unfortunately, you are obviously unable to grasp such possibilities.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
(Judging by your other posts, you seem to have an antipathy towards the concepts of order and organization that indicates that you do the same thing in the opposite direction--or at least have a tendency to do it).

That's the problem with an insignificantly small sample size. Erroneous conclusions are reached. I'm arguing contra posit ante (that "law" is identical to "good") specifically because that's the pat answer and one that will generate rather conventional and boring results.

It all springs from the mistake of creating the game-world-only concepts of "law" and "chaos" to begin with.

The fact that you cannot figure out how to make something work does not mean that something cannot be made to work, only that you cannot figure it out.
 

Dogbrain said:
It's only "obvious" to you. You're letting your prejudice dictate your choices, quite ironic for one who hurls around "rational" as much as you do.

Snip

Prove that these "rational" creatures even know what is going on. Prove that it is even POSSIBLE to "check out of it". Prove that the cosmos does not rely upon the conflict to exist in the first place.

Unfortunately, you are obviously unable to grasp such possibilities.

Of course it's impossible to "prove" that a fictional cosmos doesn't depend upon such a conflict or that it's possible to check out of it. It's also impossible to prove that there are no square circles or married bachelors if the DM who's creating the world decides to create such things. Of course, they won't correspond to anything in our experience and won't make sense if logically analyzed but if the DM says that the world depends upon the obverse side of an inverse square circle it does. All that "proves" however, is that the DM made an incoherent world.

My point is not that the creatures in such a world would know what is going on but rather that it doesn't make sense when looking at it from the top down and that consequently, sooner or later, it will cease to make sense from within the framwork as well. Presumably if one wants to create a world that showcases the "law/chaos" conflict, it will actually showcase it--that is to say, that it will not simply remain a thing for cthuloid beings of Law or Chaos whose actions and purposes are inscrutable to PC races and who interact with them not on the level of persons or even manipulators but rather on the level of forces of nature. If the conflict is on the level of "shadows and vorlons do their thing somewhere in the solar system and then stop for a moment to annihilate a couple continents on a planet populated by pre-industrial magical societies" then there is no perceptible law/chaos conflict. There are only inexplicable cataclysmic events. If you want to showcase the conflict then its agents need to be seen as such and their motivations made apparent.

To continue with the Babylon 5 example, the law/chaos beings actually have to be like the Vorlons and Shadows of the early seasons (clearly agents whose purposes may be mysterious but aren't entirely obscure, who interact in an intelligible manner with the inhabitants of the world, and whose goals are not actually self-contradictory (both the Mimbari who are clearly the kind of society the vorlon would construct and would not erradicate) and the Drakh (clearly the kind of society the Shadows DID construct without much if any interference for the Vorlons) are both functional societies). If it were like the shadows and the Vorlons after the death of Kosh II when the Vorlons stopped communicating and simply began annihilating everything the shadows had touched and the shadows were likewise, annihilating planets of the younger races, then the only possibility for interaction that could make the conflict understandable (and thereby bring the ideas it represents to the fore) is an apparently rational agent like Valen who has perhaps obscure but not impenetrable motives. Otherwise, they would remain as inscrutable as the other first ones and whatever themes and philosophies they represented would not become apparent.

The fact that you cannot figure out how to make something work does not mean that something cannot be made to work, only that you cannot figure it out.

On the other hand, the fact that you assert that something can work does not mean that it can. And, if inherent difficulties can be shown in a concept, that can demonstrate that it will not work.

In this case, your account of the great powers is incoherent as are their goals. The great powers, on the one hand, supposedly take no more notice of human goals and necessities than they do of a pebble in their shoe. On the other hand, they are intensely interested in the affairs of mortals. The law lords "enslave" mortals. They see mortals as potentially useful in their (eternal?) struggle and see some of the very things you say they take no account of (free will, love, family, honor) as corruptions inherent in mortality. Yet they apparently (since, for instance love is only seen as a corruption by law in your account), see the others (which depend upon or are the natural results of the things they see as corruptions) as useful or neutral aspects of mortality. Perhaps more to the point, since as I argued above, they have to be recognizable agents with discernable purposes (although they may be obscure ones) in order to serve as vehicles of a cosmic conflict rather than inscrutable wreakers of calamities, they will also necessarily possess a lot of the qualities that you maintain they see as the inherent corruptions of mortality.

The essential problem is that, in the attempt to create an alien and inhuman cosmology, you wind up splitting up the necessary ingredients for action and sentience into opposing camps. Doing that precludes those camps having sentient agents which actually embody their principles to carry out the supposed cosmic conflict. And if they don't have agents, then there is no personified cosmic conflict. But if they do have agents who don't personify their principles then those agents don't really embody the cosmic conflict either. Now, if you ignore the philosophy and make it us vs. them (like Warhammer) that isn't necessarily a problem. But it isn't a cosmic conflict between principles either.
 

While metaphysical debate is good, I subscribe to "K.I.S.S." Keep It Short and Simple. If you wish to use L/C instead of G/E, make it simple enough that the HUMANS playing the game can understand the world created by another HUMAN DM.

Law: Order, peace, strictness, hierarchy, opression
Chaos: Recklessness, Freedom, Oppertunity, luck, uncontrolablness
Neutrality: Somewhere in between.

Sounds simple to me, lets game.
 

You should definitely read both Moorcock's Corum & Elric series (Elric -you can ignore anything published in last 20 years). These are the foundations of the D&D Law vs Chaos alignment system.
 

Moorcock is definitely on the list.

As far as 'ultimate order means no life' & the same for chaos, I never intended Law to represent ultimate order anyway. Rather, Law represents the belief that 'social contract' (in the form of cosmic mandate) justifies coercion of those unwilling to voluntarily conform to said contract. Chaos represents the belief that free will is the paramount cosmic mandate, & that the forces of Law must therefore be opposed for the tyrrany they bring -- even if it's a tyrrany of simplicity & (relative) peace, & even if individual liberty sometimes leads to disastrous consequences.

Dogbrain's posts #18 & 19 particularly capture the essence of what's percolating in my thoughts (though post #10 doesn't really fit, since it gets into the 'order' bit).

I see the mortals' relationship to these forces as being largely shaped by the ease of existing in a structured society vs. an unstructured one. I also expect that there will be a confusion of good with law, & of evil with chaos, at the ground level; after all, I see this even in alignment debates among players.

The 'reward' for following law (which they would conceive as 'good') is an orderly self-sustaining society where most people have peaceful lives most of the time. Sucks to be the underdog or occasional victim, but oh well, that's just the role to which some are fated. The 'reward' for following chaos (which they would conceive as 'evil') is the freedom to do as you please; every powermad mage would fit right in, since they couldn't very well grab for power beyond their station in a highly structured society without violating said structure.

The CG mortals are probably the ones most likely to be fighting for the 'wrong' team; unwittingly advocating the forces of the lawful plane while thinking it's All Things Good & True for which they fight. Since their gods are not too likely to be involved in the conflict anyway (remember, I'm setting gods & outsiders as having separate structures & conflicts), I don't see their confusion as too unrealistic; their gods may feel that getting their followers involved in that conflict would simply detract from the work they can do as independant agents & figure a little confusion is better than the alternative of creating a bunch of zealots who'd meddle in affairs beyond the mortal realm. The LG clerics may be cued in... but then again, if their deities have joined this battle on the side of law, they subscribe to the theory of coercing mortals for their own ends anyway, so who's to say they wouldn't just be duping their own clergy, or have convinced the clergy to dupe the laity?
 

Snapdragyn said:
every powermad mage would fit right in, since they couldn't very well grab for power beyond their station in a highly structured society without violating said structure.
Was with you until this point... A structured society need not be a realm of limited growth potential; Indeed, the person most qualified for the task should be the person in charge of said task, while those that don't perform should loose their position. For instance, a power mad mage may feasibly gain status of head-wizard of their guild by being the best wizard.

Not invalidating what you are saying in some structured societies, but to cast all structured societies as being limiting in promotion kinda paints an image remeniscent of Brave New World.

Now, where I'd gladly concede your point is that the power-mad mage (or power-mad anything) would more likely opt for the ways of chaos because they feel that the Lawful way takes too long, is too formalized, has too many responsibilities, etc.
 


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