Cost of Adding Spells to Spellbook too high?

[Nyeshet]

This, I think, is a problem with the Cleric class. It would be nice if 3e still had some kind of "spheres" holdover so clerics didn't get the full list. Instead of Domains, where they get the full list and then some.

I second this. I've seen a few fan attempts to fix this, but oddly enough I cannot recall a third party publisher ever attempting this. Has such an attempt been made by a publisher and I missed it? Was it worth using or did it oddly arrange / mix the spells?

Personally, I think there should be a 'core' of cleric spells - only a few per level that are true of all clerics (perhaps the cure / inflict spells? and the others devoted to healing, removing maladies, raising the dead, etc?) - sort of a Universal Sphere for clerics, and all other spells divided into approximately equal lists of spells (maybe 2-4 per level?). As for the spheres, I think the domains give a good start, but I think there might be a bit too much overlap between them. In my opinion there should be as close to no overlap as possible between spheres.

Of course, I also tend to be of the view that perhaps turning undead should be one sphere power (instead of domain power), rebuking them another sphere's, rebuking water elementals another sphere's (water likely), rebuking vermin yet another, and so on, such that each sphere's power in fact is the way that cleric can use its channel / turning ability. That would vastly diversify the clerics right there - even if they worshipped the same deity.

Does anyone else agree, or are my views more odd / heretical than I realize?

 

[BSF]

I would suggest the Priest of the Celestial Spheres which is done by Ari Marmell of Lion's Den Press and distributed through Ronin Arts. It is an implementation of the Spheres concept. Pretty nice looking though I have not had the opportunity to test it in play.

Power Word: any. It's only one word!

But it is a really, really long word!

Spellbooks can be expensive, to be sure. Is it prohibitively expensive? I'm not quite sure. By the rules, it is borderline I think. But I do kind of look at it as an opportunity to provide creative rewards that enrich the atmosphere of the game and lighten that load.

 

[delericho]

Preparing from a captured spellbook is DC 15 + spell level, which means...

In effect, what you suggest is how it already is.

Not quite. At present, a Wizard can only prepare a spell from another Wizard's spellbook if he already knows the spell, and has copied it to his spellbook (which means paying the 100gp per spell level).

My suggestion was to allow them to prepare the spell if they already know it... but without having copied it to their own spellbook.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Is it just me, or is the cost of adding spells to a Wizard's spellbook insane?

The major benefit of the Wizard class, when compared with other Arcane casters, is the diversity of the spells that the wizard can call upon (well, that, and they gain access to new spell levels one class level earlier than Sorcerers and Warmages). But, when the Wizard only gets two 'free' spells per level, and it costs so much to add more new spells to the spellbook, isn't a lot of that diversity lost?

And never mind the plight of the poor Wizard who wishes to create a 'travelling' spellbook so that his one and only copy doesn't get destroyed by a cruel DM, or worse the Wizard whose one and only copy has been destroyed and needs replaced! At 100 gp per spell level, it could take him months to rebuild, while all the time his Sorcerer friend is stocking up on fun magic items instead.

Personally, I'm inclined to do one of two things:

1) Reduce the cost of scribing significantly. Perhaps reduce it to as little as "one vial of ink (8 gp) per page".

or, perhaps better,

2) Leave the costs as they are, but allow a Wizard to make use of captured and borrowed spellbooks without penalty - that is, they can learn spells from captured spellbooks, and prepare those spells from those books, without going through the pain of first scribing their own copy (and paying the spell tax), and without a Spellcraft check with each preparation.

Any thoughts?

Ayup. It got better in 3.5 (they cut the cost in half, if I remember correctly), but it didn't really fix the problem. Also note that the CAr rules lets you *use* another's spellbook, not copy them into yours, which isn't quite the same thing.

By the core, giving a PC Wizard a spellbook as treasure (found, captured, etc.) is actually a *punishment*. Imagine how a paladin's player would feel if you said "You've just found the +5 Holy Vorpal Avenger of Devil Smiting. But you'll have to pony up 50K gold before you can use it." A wizard faces something very like that under the core. As for the BBB, any time you're depending on a magic item to fix a problem with the class, your class design is wrong.

I replaced the spellbook rules lock, stock, and barrel. After my first read through. There's all kinds of curlicues, but basically it amounts to 10 gp a page + Scroll cost. Here's the full write-up, if you're interested.

 

[gizmo33]

Is it just me, or is the cost of adding spells to a Wizard's spellbook insane?

IMO it's insane, and probably a result of metagaming rather than any other kind of logic.

AFAIK 100 gp/page is two pounds of gold/page. Two pounds of gold can be hammered into a sheet 8.5 inches on a side about 1 mm thick (which is pretty thick for gold). In terms of actual gold leaf, wikipedia claims that an ounce of gold can be beaten into a 300 square foot sheet. Even a large tome could probably be leafed entirely in the amount of gold that the rules want for a single page. That's an illuminated manuscript!

One could claim that the ink components are worth more than their weight in gold, in which case adventurers would probably want to know what they are so that they don't have to lug sacks of gold around with them. Griffon-feather quills could be the new diamonds.

A 100 page spellbook costs 10,000 gp to fill up. That's 200 lbs - worth your weight in gold, even if you're a dwarf. Although according to some twist of logic, it's actually worth only half that much. Now I'm no economist but that just doesn't seem right, a perfectly usable spellbook is worth only half as much as it cost you to create it (and forget about the time spent). Seems to me like the person who wrote this section of the rules was Chaotic Evil.

Is it really necessary to screw over PCs to this extent? What happened to just killing them with traps and monsters? I don't think this sort of gouging is necessary.

 

[Kesh]

As I mentioned, the zero-level spells are the killer and every wizard has them. That's 19 days added to the time to master the spellbook right there.

I would simply rule that the 0-level spells are included in the first week of study, and don't count towards the additional spells for that purpose. So, a spellbook with all the 0-level spells plus two 1st level spells & one 2nd level spell still only takes 10 days (1 week + 3 spells) to master.

 

[Thanee]

Is it just me, or is the cost of adding spells to a Wizard's spellbook insane?

Yes, it is. Not only that, it is ridiculous, unfounded, and completely devoid of any foundation.

We had divided it by 10 already before we played our FIRST game of 3E, back then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Felix]

We had divided it by 10 already before we played our FIRST game of 3E, back then.

But, but... how will you keep the unwashed masses, or worse: the middle class, from wizarding? Surely they're not allowed the right?

Reduce the cost and you'll be up to your ears in Wizards who smell like cabbage!

 

[GreatLemur]

This has recently been discussed in House Rules, actually.

I second this. I've seen a few fan attempts to fix this, but oddly enough I cannot recall a third party publisher ever attempting this. Has such an attempt been made by a publisher and I missed it? Was it worth using or did it oddly arrange / mix the spells?

Well, there's always the Spontaneous Divine Casters variant from Unearthed Arcana. That basically gets rid of the Cleric's infinite spellbook by making them choose spells like a sorcerer, and has the added bonuses of making Clerics much more domain-focused and ending the illogical pre-prepared miracles phenomenon. I'm still trying to figure out a fair way to swap out the Turn/Rebuke Undead ability, but replacing it with a third domain sounds good.

 

[Thanee]

But, but... how will you keep the unwashed masses, or worse: the middle class, from wizarding? Surely they're not allowed the right?

Reduce the cost and you'll be up to your ears in Wizards who smell like cabbage!

Mass Lobotomy!!

Bye
Thanee