Cost of starting your own business?

[Iron Sheep]

Except you can't take 10 for a craft check... And as failing by 5 or more means losing a part of the materials, I wouldn't try MW items if I was lvl 1

You can take 10 on a skill check when there is a penalty for failure, as long as you are "not in a rush and not being threatened or distracted" (PHB p61). In fact the example on that page talks about Krusk taking 10 while climbing a cliff, which is a skill check with a definite penalty in the case of failure.

What you can't do is take 20 when there is a penalty for failure, since taking 20 implies that you keep on doing it until you get it right.

Corran

 

[Maerdwyn]

Craftsmen might hit the motherload once in a while when the PC's show up with money to burn, but otherwise, their day-to-day income is going to have to come from shoeing horses, selling farm tools, etc.

The problem with making masterwork items for profit is that you have to have a clientele with the money to spend on masterwork weapons.

That means experienced adventurers (who else is going to care about the extra plus on a battle axe and be able to afford it?), and that generally means a larger community

In a larger community, you are going to have difficulty securing space for a shop cheaply, and will face competition from the already established smith(s) in the town, who would certainly not take kindly to any newcomers. If my players wanted a campaign centered around (or at least featuring this a prominent part of the campaign), that competitoin wold get pretty ruthless, not tomention the protection money, etc that the local theives' guild and town guard would start demanding.

 

[jgbrowning]

well..

Craftsmen might hit the motherload once in a while when the PC's show up with money to burn, but otherwise, their day-to-day income is going to have to come from shoeing horses, selling farm tools, etc.

In a larger community, you are going to have difficulty securing space for a shop cheaply, and will face competition from the already established smith(s) in the town, who would certainly not take kindly to any newcomers. If my players wanted a campaign centered around (or at least featuring this a prominent part of the campaign), that competitoin wold get pretty ruthless, not tomention the protection money, etc that the local theives' guild and town guard would start demanding.

yep most craftsmen would make their money off more mundane items.

as far as the established smiths being somewhat antaganistic to a new smith, it would'nt always be that way. I just got back from india, and most (not all though ) of the "competeing" shopkeepers were friendly with the others. i think the concept that people are out to maximize their profit so much that it hampers more civilized affairs is more of a modern, perhaps reinassance.. idea.

i saw those guys not sell a thing for days. it doesnt bother them. they have a very differnet concept of a successful business than the west. successful is enough to pay for the expenses and enough to support their family. not increasing profits every year in order to out compete others.

(this is about small buisness (family owned, maybe 5 employees *mostly family members*). larger business are more competative.)

joe b.

 

[Vaxalon]

Re: well..

....i think the concept that people are out to maximize their profit so much that it hampers more civilized affairs is more of a modern, perhaps reinassance.. idea...

Not true at ALL.

Medieval craftsmen, as the cities grew, banded together into guilds and bought themselves monopolies on their products from the Crown. They definitely did NOT want competition.

 

[Maerdwyn]

Yup - that's the way it is in a lot of communities in the US (and I would assume elsewhere as well). However, do not mistake the civility and friendship that owners of established businesses display for each other for a guarante that they'd be happy if another competitor arrived and set up shop.

The assumption is that the status quo of the industry is in balance - there are enough shopkeepers to meet demand, and the shopkeepers earn (just) enough to support their families.

If another owner sets up shop, the horseshoe market does not increase in size; it merely is split between more owners. If the industry was in balance before, it no longer is, and it's very possible that the shopkeepers who were just making enough to support their families would now not be making enough to support them.

Still, you're right. If the PC was only out to make a modest profit - enough to support himself and his family, he would probably be well accepted in the community (assuming no guild activity)

However, if that's what the PC is really out to do, the player is unlike any I've ever gamed with - a simple goblin hunt would yield better results for a PC in a week than your average community shopkeeper (Expert 1 or 2) is going to earn in profits for a year.

A PC out to make real money in a local industry - the kind of money that is going to keep him on par with other PCs, is going to engender a lot less goodwill among his competitors.

 

[Buttercup]

Ok

So you make 1%, so you make 5gp back a year. And does that mean, that all the upkeep and everything is paid for? does the smith make enough money to employ the smither?

I know very little about economics, but I do know about history. So I'm coming at your question from a different angle. If your smith supplements the manufacture of weapons with shoeing horses, mending and forging pots and tools, then he will be fine. The only way a smith could afford to make weapons alone would be to have a patron. A warlord might well have a master weaponsmith, who would be set up in a nice forge. He would have apprentices to shoe the horses, make the caltrops, mend the tools & kettles. But a village smithy had to be a jack of all trades to survive.

If it were me, I would figure out how much I thought a valued craftsman would need to feed, house and clothe his family in appropriate style for a year in my world, and that's how much said smith would earn.

 

[Mistwell]

And here I came to this thread thinking it was about starting your own d20 publishing business, or some other real-world business. As a corporate attorney, I was all set to discuss the ramifications of sole proprietorships, partnerships, s-corps, c-corps, LLCs, business regulations, taxes, insurance, leases, financing...

What was I thinking? OF COURSE you were asking about fantasy businesses!

 

[jgbrowning]

well

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jgbrowning
....i think the concept that people are out to maximize their profit so much that it hampers more civilized affairs is more of a modern, perhaps reinassance.. idea...
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=-----------------------------------
originally poseted by vaxalon
Not true at ALL.

Medieval craftsmen, as the cities grew, banded together into guilds and bought themselves monopolies on their products from the Crown. They definitely did NOT want competition.
=------------------------------------

Well your partly right. guilds were important, very much so, but only in big cities and only towards the end of the middle ages (or high middle ages as some say). 1150---> 1350 or so ( i know this "dating" of the middle ages is itself questionable ) I wasn't sure weather or not the PC wanted to set himself up in a big town or a little one, but i have to give you a nod cause the generic type of DnD setting is i suppose one around 1250 or 1350 or so. course that really denpends where in europe your talking.

also it is not improbable that a "outsider" could come into a guild situation and offer to join the guild, bribe with public works offers.. etc.. and guilds were not designed to maximise their profits, they were designed to make a stable market. maximisation is pretty counter to the guild concept. and merchant guild and artiesian guilds often clashed.

out side of major cities/towns guilds had very little power, because the way guilds got power to begin with was through the cities taking power away from the liege lord who controled the land and the cities to begin with. Development of cities is a very interesting subject and here's two good books to read about it if you haven't.
Medieval cities; their origins and the revival of trade, by Henri Pirenne and the medieval town by Fritz rorig.

both of them are older, but still solid, and pirenne's ideas about the muslim's changing the focus of the medieval world is still controversial, but they're good foundation books. gotta love jumping into history... who's right.. who's wrong? nobody knows!

joe b.

 

[Vaxalon]

Actually, I already own the Pirenne book.

What *IS* clear is that craftsmen would not necessarily welcome a newcomer with open arms. To me, this means that it's a potential source of plot threads. What's more interesting, trying to worm one's way into a resistant community or setting up and watching each other starve because the market is glutted?

 

[jgbrowning]

cool!

Actually, I already own the Pirenne book.

What *IS* clear is that craftsmen would not necessarily welcome a newcomer with open arms. To me, this means that it's a potential source of plot threads. What's more interesting, trying to worm one's way into a resistant community or setting up and watching each other starve because the market is glutted?

yah, there are so many different plot threads you could pull out of this type of situation. If your running a campaign set, say somewhere around 1400 but without gunpowder you can have these huge merchant houses and guilds with all sorts of interplay and internecine war between them.

nice to meet someone else who likes dry, esoteric stuff

joe b.