Could this be the future format of 4th Edition D&D?

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I recently proposed the following ideas and suggestions of how I would design and target 4th Edition.

Okay so why change anything? Two major reasons.

Firstly, to me at least, 3rd Edition (in both its incarnations) has too many 'moving parts'. This 'complexity' has two effects upon the game. It slows the game down, especially the creative process for DMs. Also it can be daunting for casual gamers and new gamers alike.

Secondly, D&D now has to compete with far more games and hobbies than ever. Is it eye catching enough to attract new players and steal people away from other games/hobbies? How can we get D&D into the mass market and broaden its appeal?

My solution is to make the following fourfold changes to the game:

1. Vastly Simplified Rules: Along the lines of the D&D Boardgame.

A few things of note - the boardgame only allows levels 1-3. However I have a simply solution as to how that could cover levels 1-20. I also have a method for doing away with the need for counter blips and a great idea for the implementation of multi-classing/prestige classes - however, I'll keep those ideas to myself for now.

2. Board Pieces/Miniatures: Reversible, different size/shaped room and corridor sections, pre-painted miniatures.

Each boxed set would come with approx. 29 prepainted miniatures: 1 Huge, 4 Large, 19 medium, 5 Small. I was discussing the pricing issues of such minatures with MerricB (and others) in a different thread. I was thinking each boxed set should have a price no higher than $50 (preferably $40 although the value of the US dollar is sinking fast)

Here is an example of a possible miniatures spread:

Dungeons & Dinosaurs
Huge: Fiendish T-Rex
Large Mooks: 2 x Blackscale Lizardmen
Large Unique: Girallon, Large Fire Elemental
Medium Mooks #1: 3 x Salamanders
Medium Mooks #2: 4 x Lizardfolk
Medium (or Small) Unique: Digester, Shocker Lizard, Basilisk, Spectre
Small Mooks: 5 x Kobolds
NPCs: Evil Warlock, Master of Blades, Lizardfolk Cleric, Kobold Assassin
PCs: Wizard, Fighter, Cleric, Rogue

3. Player Boards/Cards: These eliminate the need for paperwork and book-keeping, as well as being an eye-catching visual component.

4. Market Strategy: Each new boxed set would not only revolve around a strong theme, but also be named after that theme.

So after the obvious Dungeons & Dragons boxed set. We would have Dungeons & Pirates, Dungeons & Dinosaurs, Dungeons & Vampires, Dungeons & Robots, Dungeons & Ninjas, Dungeons & Wizards, Dungeons & Zombies etc. Each boxed set would be the same game/format, but have new locations, new classes, new NPCs, new monsters, new feats, new spells, new magic items, new adventures etc.

For example think of Dungeons & Vampires as Libris Mortis, Dungeons & Ninjas as Oriental Adventures.

Each boxed set is a stand-alone game, but each also acts as an expansion to the others.

Then when you have the branding established you can go in different directions: Dungeons & Harryhausen.

Thirdparty companies can license the name for their own purposes: Dungeons & Conan (Mongoose)

You could run promotions with the likes of Dunkin Donuts such as Dungeons & Donuts (Free unique miniatures when you order the 'Beholder Cookie'), or Pizza Hut; Dungeons & Pizza (Order the extra hot Dragon Pizza and get free unique miniatures).

If you want to attract young female gamers then how about Dungeons & Dora or Dungeons & Tomb Raider.

You can also produce sequels to the most popular boxed sets: Dungeons & Dragons 2: Fortress of Fang, Dungeons & Vampires 2: Castle Ravenloft etc.

Okay, at this point some of you will have reservations, so lets address some of the common ones I have heard.

Complaint #1: "I don't want to play a dumbed down version of the game!"

Answer: Each boxed set would include an advanced rulebook. This would have optional rules which you could incorporate to adjust the level of detail/complexity you wanted in your game in your game.

Complaint #2: "I don't want to play a card game!"

Answer: The cards are only there in a support capacity to remove book-keeping aspects of the game and make various elements more visually pleasing. Such as feats, spells, magic items and monsters.

Complaint #3: "I don't want our game to be slave to a board!"

Answer: The board/minis are only a visual tool for tactical situations.

Complaint #4a: "The board setup will be far too limited!"

Answer: Using individual board pieces (different sized/shaped rooms and corridors) you can concoct thousands of possible layouts even from a single boxed set. I had a look through Dungeon magazine and you can easily duplicate about 50% of the adventure maps with a single boxed set. With 2, 3 or more boxed sets your options would increase exponentially.

Complaint #4b: "What if I want to create my own characters, magic items, spells?"

Answer: Each boxed set would include a template pages which you could photocopy a fill in as you wish. It would only take a page or two to explain how to keep things balanced.

If you have any other suggestions/complaints I'd be happy to address them.

So as the poll suggests. Is this something you would definately like to see, something you might buy for the miniatures, something you might try or something you don't like the sound of at all...and if so why?

 

[crazy_cat]

Blimey!

Sounds very interesting, but doesn't sound anything like the D&D I know and love, or in fact any sort of game I'd like to play quite honestly.

If that was 4e then I'm fairly sure I'd be sticking with 3.5.

Aiming something at kids to get them into RPGs is a good idea, but rather than Dungeons & Dora or Dungeons & Barbie or whatever I think WOTC would be better off with the My Little Pony RPG found here

 

[Rich Forest]

I've heard someone else talk about basically this same idea somewhere recently, but I can't remember where. The main difference I remember was the idea of also having a core book or rules cyclopedia/compendium series to go alongside it for people who just wanted the rules, but didn't want the boxed sets.

I like it, myself. I think it's got potential. (And personally, I'd be all over the boxed sets. I like the tactile and visual aspects of games.)

 

[delericho]

Okay so why change anything? Two major reasons.

Firstly, to me at least, 3rd Edition (in both its incarnations) has too many 'moving parts'. This 'complexity' has two effects upon the game. It slows the game down, especially the creative process for DMs. Also it can be daunting for casual gamers and new gamers alike.

Secondly, D&D now has to compete with far more games and hobbies than ever. Is it eye catching enough to attract new players and steal people away from other games/hobbies? How can we get D&D into the mass market and broaden its appeal?

I agree wholeheartedly with your reasons for the change. In particular, I think that D&D currently has far too high an investment level required of new players (or new playing groups, at least) both in terms of cost, and also in terms of having to read 1,000 pages of rules.

I also like several of the elements you discussed: I can clearly see the benefits of miniatures as an (optional) game aide, and the benefits of spell cards, item cards, buff cards and condition cards are all obvious to me.

However, there is something about your suggestion that just doesn't quite sit right with me. I think perhaps it is just a bridge too far for me to follow it... and there is also the issue that I happen to like the depth of the game, which a vastly simplified ruleset probably can't help but sacrifice. (Oh, and I agree with you that unnecessary complexity helps no-one, and that there are too many moving parts... but I can't escape the feeling that a shift to a playable 'board-game' version of the rules would have to be simplified beyond just a clean-up of the skills subsystem, the flight rules, and dragons.)

But that, of course, leaves the designers with an impossible conundrum: I would call on them to simplify the rules to better attract new gamers, and yet at the same time I don't want them to simplify the rules because I like the complexity...

 

[Numion]

Nah, dont like it.

If the competition requires D&D to become something its not, the game is already over. D&D's strength is that it's a game of imagination, not that it has shiny accessories like minis and cards.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I've made my views in the other thread Krusty. Ultimatley I think you are under the assumption you can make D&D all things to all people and have it be the biggest game in the world. I don't think it would work.

I vote no desire to have this become D&D. I wouldn't mind a board game D&D ala Talisman but I like my RPG's to be freed from boards.

 

[Zendragon]

Is my calendar wrong, is this April 1st? You can't be serious with post. If you want to play D&D the board game and just expand the rules, go right ahead.

 

[Dykstrav]

Seems like a step backwards to me. Didn't modern roleplaying games evolve out of wargames, which are essentially abstracted board games?

The fact of the matter is roleplaying games aren't everyone's cup of tea. I don't thing RPGs will ever be as mainstream as movies or video games, no matter how much you simplify them or tone down the options (which is exactly what you do when you simplify the game). I'm not trying to be elitist, but RPGs definitely cater to the 'smarter than the average bear' market. People who prefer an RPG over a board game or video game desire the freedom and control that they get, which is precisely what you'd lose by stripping the game down into a board game format.

Seems to me that this format would try to make RPGs sell better by making them into a variant style of board game instead of a RPG, while trying to keep the old players on board through the strength of the brand. I wouldn't be interested in buying a 4E marketed this way, and I suspect there are alot of people out there who wouldn't either. Then you'd get a White Wolf situation like they have with the new World of Darkness...

Now on the other hand, I'd be interested in buying a boxed set that was sold essentially as a "dungeon kit" that contained an adventure, including the battle maps/dungeon tiles and the miniatures that go with it. I could see the Sunless Citadel of the Forge of Fury selling well this way. Maybe even an Undermountain series with expansions released twice a year or so.

 

[Seeker95]

Something Else

I voted "Something Else".

This sounds fun.
Just don't call it D&D.

 

[Seeker95]

Now on the other hand, I'd be interested in buying a boxed set that was sold essentially as a "dungeon kit" that contained an adventure, including the battle maps/dungeon tiles and the miniatures that go with it.

Like the Fantastic Locations series?