Could this be the future format of 4th Edition D&D?

[Numion]

I don't understand why someone would want to get rid of, or marginalize, the character sheet. It's an important part of personalizing your character - not just because it stores the information on your character (for which there could be different methods), but because it's written by the player.

Then there's the problem that in RPGs several things can affect, for example, how well you can strike a blow with a sword. In D&D your characters abilities, equipment, level, feats etc.. are factored in. This is a richness for the system. Any feat cards or ability cards would be useless because they wouldn't store the combinatory effect on whatever they apply to. In a character sheet all those are neatly stored in the 'modifiers' line. Much more useful than adding it all up while browsing thru your stack of cards. Besides, cards aren't that useful in storing information - you'd need a stack of them to cover the information that can be gained at a glance from a character sheet.

And here's a pre-rebuttal to UK coming in shouting about simplification: yep, it could be simplified so that cards would be useful, but that would mean minimizing interaction between cards, i.e. that only one or few cards can affect for example to-hit (otherwise there would be deck browsing, and that would be counterintuitive to the reason why you would want to use cards in the first place), but that would limit the game severely. All the fighters would be pretty similar, and adding new abilities would be difficult.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi MerricB matey!

I think that having the next edition of D&D as a board game is a Really Bad Idea.

I think any next edition of D&D is a bad idea. But that my suggestion is better than the purely pen & paper route.

However, I think there is a lot of potential in writing a set of rules that combine the existing D&D Miniatures and Dungeon Tiles (plus perhaps an additional deck of cards or two) into a boardgame. There is a start at it in the Miniatures Handbook (Random Dungeons), but it is my feeling that there needs to be more of a structure to the format and, particularly, to the goal of a scenario.

There is a big difference between a set board and a random board; the latter rarely works in terms of a D&D-type scenario. Thus, I prefer the idea of Scenarios.

Purely random dungeons boil down to "let's kill the next monster", which is fun but very limited (and eventually pales in interest). I'd rather have a game where the players need to make meaningful decisions to progress to their goal.

Surely this could easily be achieved with some variety amidst the Adventure/Campaign Rulebook.

Take the D&D Miniatures combat rules as a starting point; add decks of cards for magic items and special encounters, and use the DDM stat cards for monster stats and monster encounters, and you have the beginnings of a D&D Board Game that uses the existing material as a starting point, which is the approach I prefer.

That could work I suppose, although I really like the base simplicity of the D&D Boardgame combat where the attack and damage is all one roll.

 

[painandgreed]

You can only corner a market if you produce the game. HeroQuest is OOP, as far as I know.

So, in other words, this idea has been tried and failed. The only thing this attempt does is slap the D&D brand on it, kill the old game, and expect the branding and disenfranchised players to keep it afloat. Given the results of the poll, I suspect they would instead simply play other games.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey MerricB dude!

There are some very nice pieces that translate to D&D. (I have the Noble Dragon figure myself, which is nice).

Cool!

The Eater of Hope, Thunder Sultan, Octorilla, Hungry Ghost, World Eater and Fleshless Reaper minis (among others) are giving me goosebumps.

The game is solid, and owes a lot more to boardgames than skirmish wargames like D&D Minis. However, I'm unsure to whether it is being overly successful.

I suppose it can be difficult to 'make something popular' but you never know until its out there.

Personally, I prefer monsters that relate to real life more than the Lovecraftian inventions of Dreamscape; MMIV is a book I rather like and make some use of.

NOOOO!

I'll take an Eater of Hope (whatever that is) over a 4th-level Orc Barbarian any day.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Aus_Snow!

Except that it isn't.

Well I say it is and you haven't suggested a better alternative, so how can you say I am wrong and you are right?

Perhaps it it's not the current worst idea. . . but it might even be so.

Its the current best idea for making D&D a success in my opinion. It may not be the current best idea for placating D&D elitists, but I don't think any new incarnation of D&D can do that.

D&D has a solid user base, as it is. Any kind of 4th edition D&D that is actually a RPG will not endanger that anywhere near as much as would any kind of 4th edition D&D that is not in fact a RPG.

Any kind of pen & paper 4th Edition has the catch 22 of

a) Needing to be different enough to sell new books
b) Being similar enough so as not to render 3.5 purchases obsolete

So no matter what way they go, its going to alienate a large percentage of current gamers.

There is just no problem to solve here. I think that's the main thing, really.

Depends on your perspective. If you are WotC the problem is how to keep making money from D&D.

3.5 seems to be drying up in terms of what they can do without repeating existing products.

A purely pen & paper 4th edition might shift some core rulebooks but beyond that it will either alienate existing 3.5 gamers by straying too far from 3.5 or not entice 3.5 gamers by virtue of simply not being different enough to warrant purchase. So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

So the problem is where do WotC go from here?

I have proffered the idea of targeting the mainstream with a simpler more visceral product. The problem people have been keen to point out is that this idea alienates 72% of existing gamers (according to the poll), but what they don't want to face up to is that ANY idea will alienate existing gamers.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

What do you base this on? Why do you think the large majority of the D&D players won't buy a new edition? What lead to you thinking that a new edition would not sell? People here complain and say they have enough RPG stuff forever, well they could have said that with any edition.

And your idea alienates a lot of the gamers not because it is a new edition idea, but because it is taking THE classic pen and paper RPG and making it a board game instead.

 

[Numion]

b) Being similar enough so as not to render 3.5 purchases obsolete

3E didn't do this and became a huge success, so I guess there's only one option from your POV. What's the problem, then?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Cam matey!

Very clever.

I have my moments!

How are all of these appealing to existing players?

How are they not?

What are you trying to say...that no one wants D&D simpler?...that no one wants D&D quicker?...that no one wants D&D wth less book-keeping?...of course there are people that these facets appeal to.

You can claim that not all of my points appeal to everyone, but you can't appeal to all of the people all of the time. No possible 4th Edition will appeal to all existing gamers.

So all you can do is try and make it attract as many people as possible.

Therefore your argument that every facet has to appeal to every gamer is simply illogical.

Wizards problem is that they are in a position now where they have to create something new, but no matter what they do its going to alienate a large amount of existing gamers.

Repeating the same thing over and over isn't making it any clearer.

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away either.

It's like shouting when you don't speak the language.

Its like burying your head in the sand.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Lorgrom!

With the exception of numbers 6 and 7. This sounds very much like the red boxed Dungeons and Dragons.

What about #1 Book-keeping (the red boxed set still had character sheets) and #5 attractiveness (did the red box have minis/board tiles/cards?)

For those of you who were not playing or even alive at the time. It was a boxed set, had 2 or 3 thin paper booklets. Very stream lined rules (for what rules there were), and one deadly factor. It required the DM to make the majority of the decisions regarding doing things not covered in the rules.

A lot of which we can get around with what I am proposing.

The reason ADnD (1st edition, 2nd edition, 3rd edition and 3.5 edition) has gotten more and more complex each incarnation. Is more due to the fact the people buying the product WANTED rules to cover things. That way players had a way to keep half-ass or worse DMs from kiling the game.

True, but now that they have all that complexity they are finding that it has a downside to it.

If you want to play the kind of game your suggesting. Go on e-bay, but the old DnD box sets. Then add in your tiles and minitures.

Actually I'm suggesting something simpler than the D&D red box rules.

There case solved. You get to play (and help bring in new players). While those of us who went through that phase 20+ years ago, can keep the current game.

At no point have I ever said you can't keep the current game. But the success of 3.5 is likely to severely hamper 4th Edition - whatever the game looks like.

Just so you know when you make less/no bookkeeping and faster playing, you have to elimnate players options. Which of course is solved ..........

You can still have variety without complexity.

Just get the red box set and read the rules, you will quickly understand where I am comming from.

I have played the red box rules.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey JV!

Imaginative doesn't always sell when it comes to monster books. Trust me.

If you have two books with exactly the same marketing and core interest from the beginning) I guarantee the more imaginative one will sell better.

If one is better marketed or appeals to a wider audience, then chances are imagination won't make a difference.

I think a Monster Manual with the Dreamscape monsters would sell better than half a book of regurgitated slightly tweaked material (as per MMIV). Although as MerricB said, he'd prefer the latter so I think we can conclude hes mad.