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D&D 5E Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)
- Thread starter Oofta
- Start date
Bacon Bits
Legend
If you mean completely besides the point then I agree. The past several pages have been nothing but people poking holes in @Oofta's examples. Nobody has presented a counter argument. Nobody has backed up their assertions. They're just telling Oofta he's wrong because they apparently can't imagine any scenario where he's right. It's been re-framed as Oofta's examples versus everyone else's stubborn refusal to take them in a remotely favorable light. It's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.
The whole thing has boiled down to, "well, because I can theoretically imagine not agreeing with your argument, then the whole thing is WRONG." It's really quite ludicrous and I don't understand why Oofta is still here.
Can someone please explain to me what breaks if the PCs can freely rest whenever they want? Why does it matter if the PCs rest to 100% before every encounter? Why are there absolutely ZERO countermeasures that could ever be taken EVEN IN THEORY? They all mysteriously fail? Really?
Asisreo
Patron Badass
100% agreed. Oofta's examples are NOT the topic and really shouldn't be digested more than "nah, don't think it works." It's difficult to prove that a spell is broken because you can't prove it's broken by disproving counters. You need a metric that everyone can agree on and can't be argued against to PROVE that Leomund's is broken, which is probably impossible.
And it's suspicious that they cling onto Oofta's post when there has been about half-a-dozen other posters giving suggestions.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It’s directly analogous. Hobgoblins are basically legionnaires. Of course their patrols would have tools to build fortifications.
LordEntrails
Hero
Nothing.
But those that argue Da Hut is broken often do so for other reasons. Claiming that the spell if used outside of resting can be used to make an impassable choke point in a dungeon (which ok, why not) and that the dungeon inhabitants would usually let the party do so with a ritual so it doesn't require any resources. And then this impenetrable fortification at a choke point can be used as a sally port because you know, the monsters are just going to sit there and wait to be attacked and not take any type of intelligent actions (like running away, or killing the princess).
Look, I agree with @Oofta, but that doesn't mean I would make the same rulings as he does in every situation. In short, my view is that first you have to decide what "broken" means. And I would say the spell is not broken by any but the most useless definitions. Is it "more powerful" than other 3rd level spells? Probably, but I don't worry about that, because it is situational. And it many cases (not all) it can be countered or rendered irrelevant by simple actions that require no resources on the adversary's part.
Does it break the game at my table? Nope, never seen this spell break the game. Have I seen it occasional change the challenge of an encounter? Change the way a dungeon would have otherwise played out? Yes, but that is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. I like dynamic dungeons, I like unpredictable adventures. I like encounters that are not prescriptive, and campaigns that do not have the story written until they are over.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Its the very detailed exploration of what the spell description implies...getting enough of a crossbow out of the hemispherical forcefield, whether paint adheres to force fields, how much a gallon of it covers, how well fresh-cut saplings burn when splashed with Alchemist fire, boy scout skills vs middle-school science-nerd speculation, Roman pecedents...
...I mean so much of my back-in-the-day experience of 1e took place in those kinds of rabbit holes, and when 5e can't take us back to them, it digs new ones, like this.
Plausible Deniability breaks.
I mean, in all likelihood, nothing breaks at a given table that isn't already broken. A campaign running an average of 1-3 encounters and the odd short rest between long rests is not going to be disrupted by Hutting - if anything, the party wizards are unlikely to see the value in the ritual, unless they are traveling through an uncomfortable environment and it helps them avoid exhaustion or difficult CON checks or something.
But, theoretically, if we're trying to explain that, no 5e doesn't really have LFQW & class tiers, and definitely isn't "too easy," the cornerstone of our Intellect Fortress is going to be the sacred 6-8 encounter day.
So, if players can push a spell button and rest at will, it's a problem.
They can't, of course, we can build hobgoblin rafts, start a ticking clock, introduce tunneling monsters, change the course of mighty rivers, whatever it takes.
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Asisreo
Patron Badass
I feel like you're implying that we change things in the moment to counter the spell, which is actually not at all what I had in mind. Whether or not my table uses LTH, I'm going to have monsters roaming and interrupting whatever they're doing probably within 10 minutes if they stay in one place. My table can't even get away with Detect Magic as a ritual without getting interrupted (by creatures on a given patrol determined before they even set foot in the dungeon.)Its the very detailed exploration of what the spell description implies...getting enough of a crossbow out of the hemispherical forcefield, whether paint adheres to force fields, how much a gallon of it covers, how well fresh-cut saplings burn when splashed with Alchemist fire, boy scout skills vs middle-school science-nerd speculation, Roman pecedents...
...I mean so much of 1e existed in those rabbit holes, and when 5e can't take us back to them, it digs new ones, like this.
Plausible Deniability breaks.
I mean, in all likelihood, nothing breaks at a given table that isn't already broken. But, theoretically, if we're trying to explain that, no 5e doesn't really have LFQW & class tiers, and definitely isn't "too easy," the cornerstone of our Intellect Fortress is the sacred 6-8 encounter day.
So, if players can push a spell button and rest at will, it's a problem.
They can't, of course, we can build hobgoblin rafts, start a ticking clock, introduce tunneling monsters, change the course of mighty rivers, whatever it takes.
I would give my goblins supplies like paint, someone needs to paint the banners. Though, actually I'd give my goblins the cart of random patrol supplies first before I'd give them paint or something. And they have that before I even think about my players using Leomund's.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Doing so is certainly legit DMing.
Though I'd go so far as to say we should change things in the moment, just in general. We can't anticipate everything.
I think this is especially true when encountering very intelligent opponents. Especially true if they have survived for centuries. They've had many attempts on their existence, almost nothing should surprise them. If the bad guy is a genius level intellect they're going to have options. Options I may not have had on my prep sheet. Even a patrol or roving band is going to have supplies not listed on the MM entry because it's not relevant that they'll have cooking supplies or tents or whatever miscellaneous gear they need.
As far as any one of my suggestions, yeah I fully admit they aren't going to work for everyone. But the real response to the tiny hut spell is a single bullet point. Time. That's kind of boring.
Given that it takes 11 minutes to cast the spell, it would be difficult to cast in many places. Eight hours is a long time for the enemy to prepare a counter attack. Summon extra troops, prepare defenses, set up murder corridors, collapse tunnels and so on.
I could pick apart several of the scenarios of how the hut is broken, but this has been an argument with posters that think building any type of barricade (mobile or otherwise) is not physically possible over the course of mere hours. That insist that 1d4 fire damage is gong to instantly incinerate any wooden structure. It's kind of pointless.
I was hoping to get feedback from everyone else that, like me, has never seen an issue with this spell. For those that did, thanks!
One other thought on this*, we're talking about a magical world. One of the posters complaining on the other thread talked about how a dracolich just flew around helplessly while the party rested for 8 hours.
I was thinking about this one and I gotta say, huh? If the dracolich is in their lair they have lair actions. Things they can do every 6 seconds. Options vary by dragon, in most cases the effects last until the next lair action or the dragon dies.
But what really bothers me is that the poster never asked how other people would deal with something like this. It was just given as an example that because they didn't come up with a counter at the time. It was fait accompli, the spell is just impossibly broken and the party can always get a long rest whenever they want.
So yes, some of my options were a bit out there. But this is a world where mods have fire giants with cauldrons of molten metal lying around at their disposal. One invisibility spell and the hut will potentially be encased in molten metal. With a lucky roll the giant might even get away with the party not knowing it's going to happen before the metal starts spreading. But of course that would be "impossible". Which if you were fighting CR 1/4 goblins it would be. Possible counters depend on the opponent and the situation.
P.S. I should have said "obscure sight" instead of "paint". Good grief, take one option overly-literally and assume that suddenly every orc on the planet is carrying a 10 gallon bucket of paint is stupid as evidence there's no possible way to counter the spell.
*Yes, I know it's a bad habit of mine
I was thinking about this one and I gotta say, huh? If the dracolich is in their lair they have lair actions. Things they can do every 6 seconds. Options vary by dragon, in most cases the effects last until the next lair action or the dragon dies.
- Black dragon has impenetrable darkness to set up other stuff.
- Blue dragon just collapses the ceiling on the party.
- Green dragon can use grasping vines but it doesn't really say how tall they are. I'd say they spread over the dome but if they don't there's just surrounding the hut with a wall of thorns.
- Red dragon causes geysers of magma bury the hut, if not just fill the hut with magma (depends on a couple of factors depending on how you rule).
- White dragon buries the hut in shards of ice that continuously fall from the ceiling, uses a wall of ice or just obscures sight with fog.
But what really bothers me is that the poster never asked how other people would deal with something like this. It was just given as an example that because they didn't come up with a counter at the time. It was fait accompli, the spell is just impossibly broken and the party can always get a long rest whenever they want.
So yes, some of my options were a bit out there. But this is a world where mods have fire giants with cauldrons of molten metal lying around at their disposal. One invisibility spell and the hut will potentially be encased in molten metal. With a lucky roll the giant might even get away with the party not knowing it's going to happen before the metal starts spreading. But of course that would be "impossible". Which if you were fighting CR 1/4 goblins it would be. Possible counters depend on the opponent and the situation.
P.S. I should have said "obscure sight" instead of "paint". Good grief, take one option overly-literally and assume that suddenly every orc on the planet is carrying a 10 gallon bucket of paint is stupid as evidence there's no possible way to counter the spell.
*Yes, I know it's a bad habit of mine
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