D&D 5E Counterspell nerfed!

[Ancalagon]

Well, I have to side with Maxperson on this - if you can't perceive a spell being cast, how can you counter it?

now... could someone learn which eyes shoots which rays, what are the telltale signs of a beholder about to discharge a spell with an eye? Maybe yeah, someone with that training could counterspell a beholder. But most people - even experienced adventurers - wouldn't know this. This isn't "you need fire to fight trolls" level of knowledge here.

(edit: punctuation)

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Well, I have to side with Maxperson on this - if you can't perceive a spell being cast, how can you counter it?

The same way you perceive that you're going to get hit...so you cast Shield on yourself.


^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Lyxen]

The same way you perceive that you're going to get hit...so you cast Shield on yourself.

There's a bit of difference between perceiving what is going to hit you and what is being started on the other side of the battlefield by an opponent that you might not even be watching and doing nothing specifically conspicuous, and countering that before it's even finished...

 

[Mirtek]

It's a matter of the social contract. Players (my players anyway) tend to take it poorly when they are "gotcha'd" by a wasted spell slot, so in practice they mostly get away with it. Still irritates the hell out of me sometimes.

How would they ever know they wasted a slot? They cast counterspell and either need to roll or block automatically. They'll never know what exactly the blocked and thus whether it was a wasted counterspell or not.

 

[Mirtek]

How is this,

Fireball [Spell V,S,M] Standard Action. Range 150ft. 8d6 Damage in a 20ft-radius-sphere. Dexterity Save for half damage.

more difficult than this?

Fiery Explosion Standard Action. Range 150ft. 8d6 Damage in a 20ft-radius-sphere. Dexterity Save for half damage.

Seems to me that both are equally easy for the DM to use on the fly.

No, the second one results in a lot of issues that take extra time to solve. Which have all already been mentioned in this thread.

It's not just counterspell, there's a whole lot of class features and items that are keyed to work against spells. And just whether it's a spell or not is not enough for them of them and you also need the spell level to determine how things work.

Instead of just being able to look up fireball, you now need to come up with all of this for fiery explostion

 

[Lyxen]

How would they ever know they wasted a slot? They cast counterspell and either need to roll or block automatically. They'll never know what exactly the blocked and thus whether it was a wasted counterspell or not.

I't all a question of the way you play at the table. Without any judgement of quality here, some people play extremely openly ("metagaming" if you want, but no negative connotation, it's just a way of playing) with everything in the open, and they expect to know all this. Other tables (the ones I play at amongst others) play very secretly, where the players only know what their characters can actually perceive.

In the first case, they would expect to know and maybe be disappointed, in the second case, they would probably never know whether they counterspelled a cantrip or something far more deadly, unless (for example) they did exceptionally well on their arcana check.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Actually, here's a thought....

If innate magical abilities can't be counterspelled, might they be temporarily suppressed with dispel magic?

I kind of like that different tactics would be needed for different foes.

Magical lingering effect from an source, in my opinion can be dispelled by dispel magic. The exceptions in my book are very high level effect that say they cannot be dispelled and I add in wish as a special case. In my book, wish needs another wish to dispel it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Again. The important part of RAW is the W. If it's not written, it is not RAW. You can add that in as homebrew, but any sign of casting other than V, S, M is invented by the DM and not a part of RAW.

Not so. In this context you are using it for mechanical means. Without it there can be no counterspell. With it there is. The mechanics depend on it, so it's homebrew. Regardless of what you want to call it, though, it's not RAW.

Lol wow. Just incredible.

No. I’m not adding anything. There is an ability that lets you cancel spells you can see being cast. The rules don’t specify what can or can’t be seen. Therefor it’s up to the DM what can and cannot be seen, outside of stuff like no line of sight or invisibility.

Im not the one adding things to the equation, here.

 

[Maxperson]

Hiya!

The same way you perceive that you're going to get hit...so you cast Shield on yourself.


^_^

Paul L. Ming

The rules are different, though. Shield doesn't say that it stops an attack in the process of happening. It is explicitly worded to be after the fact, while Counterspell is explicitly worded to be before the fact(during the casting).

 

[Maxperson]

No, the second one results in a lot of issues that take extra time to solve. Which have all already been mentioned in this thread.

I skipped some pages and haven't seen a single instance where the latter would be confusing at all.

It's not just counterspell, there's a whole lot of class features and items that are keyed to work against spells.

Like what? Since it's not a spell there should be no confusion. If it is keyed to work against spells, it simply does not work against Fiery Explosion. The ease remains the same.

And just whether it's a spell or not is not enough for them of them and you also need the spell level to determine how things work.

No you don't. You need no spell level for magical abilities. I'll refer you back to the Beholder which has no spell levels, uses no spells, but has magical actions that are similar to spells. I've seen zero threads or hell, zero posts in the last 7 years expressing confusion.

Instead of just being able to look up fireball, you now need to come up with all of this for fiery explostion

Or none of it, since no ability that affects spells applies. You just do for Fiery Explosion what you have done for Beholders.