D&D 5E Counterspell nerfed!

[Lyxen]

Read the Sage Advice on the topic. It's quite clear that without components, casting is not perceptible and cannot be countered.

I'm well aware of this sage advice, but neither does it say that if a spell has components, then it is perceptible. If nothing is perceptible, then of course, it will not be perceived, but if some things might be perceptible does not mean that they will be by everyone or even anyone.

 

[CapnZapp]

Why?

Because the new monster format has monsters not actually casting spells

This is very shortsighted analysis.

There could easily be a change in the spell that allows you to use it to counter any magical effect.

I would wait two years before I start holding my breath on this.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm well aware of this sage advice, but neither does it say that if a spell has components, then it is perceptible. If nothing is perceptible, then of course, it will not be perceived, but if some things might be perceptible does not mean that they will be by everyone or even anyone.

Barring something special, though, you're aware of things happening around you in combat, including spellcasting(assuming any components are used). If there's something specific that beats that general rule, then that's different.

 

[Charlaquin]

Actually, here's a thought....

If innate magical abilities can't be counterspelled, might they be temporarily suppressed with dispel magic?

I kind of like that different tactics would be needed for different foes.

Dispel magic also only works on spells.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, I have to side with Maxperson on this - if you can't perceive a spell being cast, how can you counter it?

now... could someone learn which eyes shoots which rays, what are the telltale signs of a beholder about to discharge a spell with an eye? Maybe yeah, someone with that training could counterspell a beholder. But most people - even experienced adventurers - wouldn't know this. This isn't "you need fire to fight trolls" level of knowledge here.

Funny, when I use beholderkin, I give each eyestalk a different eyecolor, I describe which stalk a ray comes out of when it’s used, and I describe the eye closing after firing its ray and opening when the ray recharges. That way the players can make informed decisions when fighting it.

 

[Charlaquin]

This is very shortsighted analysis.

There could easily be a change in the spell that allows you to use it to counter any magical effect.

I would wait two years before I start holding my breath on this.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the wording of Counterspell and Dispel Magic change in the revised rule books to allow them to counter these not-spell monster abilities. But, we’re going to have two years of this new style of monster design before the revised book comes out, so it is kind of necessary to decide what to do about them in the meantime (and in the future, if counterspell and dispel magic don’t end up being changed after all).

 

[Ancalagon]

This is very shortsighted analysis.

There could easily be a change in the spell that allows you to use it to counter any magical effect.

I would wait two years before I start holding my breath on this.

I'm glad I am no longer on your ignore list.

I think that you are correct, ultimately. WotC making a mistake is a more likely cause than an intentional nerf. The errata could take longer than it should, however.

 

[Lyxen]

Barring something special, though, you're aware of things happening around you in combat, including spellcasting(assuming any components are used).

SInce you are very much a partisan of the RAW, please point us at the section of the rules where it supports this.

AFAIK, nothing in the rules entitles a character to perceive anything that is happening, part from a single sentence about hiding and seeing a creature approaching. But whether seeing someone casting a specific spell can be seen right in front of him, 10 feet away, 100 feet away, in sunlight, in moonlight, in plain sight, or at the back of the room hidden by all other combattants, I don't think that you'll find anything in the rules that entitles a character to see anything.

 

[Dayte]

On a related note, does anybody run spellcasting such that opponents don't automatically know what spell is being cast when they have to use their reaction? Perhaps there could be an arcana check to know what spell it is? (Although I would like there to be some cost to the arcana check...perhaps that in doing so you consume your reaction even if you don't cast Counterspell?)

Yes, this would be a pretty serious nerf to Counterspell, but I'd be ok with that. Even when I'm on the player side of the screen, Counterspell just seems too....easy.

This is exactly how I run it. This way it is not a semi-automatic void of NPC's spells when it is cost effective (cost of a reaction and spell slot).

If they fail their Arcana check they have a tough choice to make and if they make their arcana check and decide not to counterspell. it still costs their reaction. I haven't had any big push-back against it and, of course, I run Team Bad Guys the same way.

I'm still trying to work out the rule for legendary resistances. If the creature doesn't have arcana, they end up blowing their legendary resistances on cantrips, because the party is quick to realize they are using legendary resistance and switch to cantrips to burn up its uses.

 

[Ancalagon]

Hiya!

The same way you perceive that you're going to get hit...so you cast Shield on yourself.


^_^

Paul L. Ming

I don't think anyone would argue that you cast shield when the sword is sticking in you. It's done to prevent the hit landing by creating a short lived magical shield. You cast shield same way a warrior would duck or raise their shield or parry or whatever - it's a defensive move you take in combat, an "oh naughty word" maneuver when you realize that you won't be able to duck the blow. Clearly the time to cast it is very fast.

When you counter spell, you

You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell.

Once the fireball, the ray of weakness, whatever, is cast, it's too late. The spell is cast