D&D 5E Counterspell nerfed!

[UngeheuerLich]

Since it's a 10d6 fireball - and that's what the staff of power casts, that seems like the likeliest option (as opposed to an upcast to 5th level one). But it's not stated - just as easy to state "Kelek casts fireball from his staff of power..."

BUT - it's not called fireball, it's called fiery explosions (not the name of any spell and it's not identified as a spell plus unlike spells it has a recharge mechanic).

AND it's in a separate place from Kelek's spells - which are listed lower in the statblock.

By the wording of counterspell (it counters spells and spells only) it really shouldn't work, neither should the (Ancients) Paladin aura, nor globe of invulnerability etc. etc.

And THAT'S the real issue (IMO all the stuff about being able to see the casting etc. is a distraction because that's not the problem being caused by this statblock change) - this is classified as an ability not a spell. It completely confuses the issue.

Sure the DM can say "it's a spell, I'll treat it like one" but that entirely defeats the purpose of this being EASIER for the DM. I hope they have a bit more care with changes in the future!

But as a player, you don't perceive the casting, so you can just assume it is a fireball

 

[Mort]

Once more, what has been broken ? There were already some monster traits which behaved like spells and were not, and in TWBtWL monsters still have a clear "Spellcasting" trait showing that these can be countered and dispelled.

It's only presentation, and it's a trial to make it easier to read, but all the critics (and possibly worried powergamers) can do is think that something has been "broken"?

Reading Wild Beyond the Witchlight ALL of the damaging offensive spells have been moved to away from the "spells" section and into their own section with labels like chaos bolt or fiery explosions or whatever. If all of these spells are instead special abilities:

The feat Mage Slayer goes from a bit fringe but VERY useful under certain circumstances to near useless;

The Ancients paladin aura becomes near useless (if all damaging monster/npc spells are now abilities, what use is resistance to SPELL damage);

Counterspell becomes MUCH less useful;

I'm sure there are other situations.

It's not a question of broken. It's a question of a change that was supposed to make things easier for the DM, likely not doing so.

 

[Mort]

But as a player, you don't perceive the casting, so you can just assume it is a fireball

Tongue in Cheek yes?

But really, now conterspell (and other abilities) never even comes up. The DM doesn't say "Kelek casts a spell..." or "Kelek casts fireball..." or even "Kelek casts fiery explosions..."

Instead the DM says "Kelek uses his Fiery Explosions special ability..." never using the word spell in any way. Players that have abilities to counter/resist/help with spells wouldn't even know to use them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Tongue in Cheek yes?

But really, now conterspell (and other abilities) never even comes up. The DM doesn't say "Kelek casts a spell..." or "Kelek casts fireball..." or even "Kelek casts fiery explosions..."

Instead the DM says "Kelek uses his Fiery Explosions special ability..." never using the word spell in any way. Players that have abilities to counter/resist/help with spells wouldn't even know to use them.

Yes, tongue in cheek!

But I would never tell the players that I use the fiery explosion power anyway.
Instead I say:
- Kelek points his staff at you and it makes booooooom next to you.

 

[Mort]

Once more, what has been broken ? There were already some monster traits which behaved like spells and were not, and in TWBtWL monsters still have a clear "Spellcasting" trait showing that these can be countered and dispelled.

It's only presentation, and it's a trial to make it easier to read, but all the critics (and possibly worried powergamers) can do is think that something has been "broken"?

Reading Wild Beyond the Witchlight ALL (as far as I can tell) of the damaging offensive spells have been moved away from the "spells" section and into their own section with labels like chaos bolt or fiery explosions or whatever, they are not labeled spells and don't even have spell names. If all of these spells are instead special abilities:

The feat Mage Slayer goes from a bit fringe but VERY useful under certain circumstances to near useless;

The Ancients paladin aura becomes near useless (What use is resistance to spell damage when the bad guys don't cast damaging spells?);

Counterspell becomes near useless against NPC and monster offensive magic (as they're no longer "spells");

I'm sure there are other abilities that get impacted.

So either it's essentially a stealth nerf to a bunch of abilities or it's an oversight. Neither one's that great! So far it's one supplement, we won't know until we see a few more what the extent is.

 

[Maxperson]

No, I have given you the exact quote that you have used "It sees you unless something special happens to keep it from being seen". You are the one requiring something special from happening, which is all I'm pointing out as my example does not involve a special something happening, just circumstances which are fairly common on a D&D battlefield.

Fighting in darkness IS something special. It doesn't happen that often at all. Something special being needed also is explicitly NOT "always being unable to tell", which is what you said.

So once again, if you don't want to be called out for a Strawman, don't commit one.

 

[J.Quondam]

Reading Wild Beyond the Witchlight ALL (as far as I can tell) of the damaging offensive spells have been moved away from the "spells" section and into their own section with labels like chaos bolt or fiery explosions or whatever, they are not labeled spells and don't even have spell names. If all of these spells are instead special abilities:

The feat Mage Slayer goes from a bit fringe but VERY useful under certain circumstances to near useless;

The Ancients paladin aura becomes near useless (What use is resistance to spell damage when the bad guys don't cast damaging spells?);

Counterspell becomes near useless against NPC and monster offensive magic (as they're no longer "spells");

I'm sure there are other abilities that get impacted.

So either it's essentially a stealth nerf to a bunch of abilities or it's an oversight. Neither one's that great! So far it's one supplement, we won't know until we see a few more what the extent is.

In that warpriest statblock that's been floating around, there's one damage ability (comparable to and used alongside the melee attack) and one healing ability that hew to this new not-a-spell format. In addition to those, though, there's a spell list which contains flamestrike and hold person, among others.

So I'm wondering if the designers caught this issue in the time since Witchlight was published printed? Perhaps they've implemented a "compromise" for the upcoming monster book, where that "compromise" is (in this case) to make the warpriest easy to run from the statblock as a mostly "magical martial" NPC for DMs who want/need that, while also providing a handful of beefier combat (and healing) spells for GMs who want more options (either to use in an encounter, or as a reference for customization)?

edit: to add the new war priest statblock:

Spoiler: warpriest statblock

 

[Maxperson]

In that warpriest statblock that's been floating around, there's one damage ability (comparable to and used alongside the melee attack) and one healing ability that hew to this new not-a-spell format. In addition to those, though, there's a spell list which contains flamestrike and hold person, among others.

So I'm wondering if the designers caught this issue in the time since Witchlight was published printed? Perhaps they've implemented a "compromise" for the upcoming monster book, where that "compromise" is (in this case) to make the warpriest easy to run from the statblock as a mostly "magical martial" NPC for DMs who want/need that, while also providing a handful of beefier combat (and healing) spells for GMs who want more options (either to use in an encounter, or as a reference for customization)?

I think it's more a case of special actions being like NPC class abilities, so Kelek has a special class ability to cause explosions, and then he has a spell list since he's a caster. You can Counterspell the spells, but not the "class ability."

Edit: For those of you who are arguing that these magical actions are spells and can therefore be Counterspelled, are you also okay with things like Malleable Illusions and Illusory Self being Counterspelled by NPCs?

 

[Mort]

In that warpriest statblock that's been floating around, there's one damage ability (comparable to and used alongside the melee attack) and one healing ability that hew to this new not-a-spell format. In addition to those, though, there's a spell list which contains flamestrike and hold person, among others.

So I'm wondering if the designers caught this issue in the time since Witchlight was published printed? Perhaps they've implemented a "compromise" for the upcoming monster book, where that "compromise" is (in this case) to make the warpriest easy to run from the statblock as a mostly "magical martial" NPC for DMs who want/need that, while also providing a handful of beefier combat (and healing) spells for GMs who want more options (either to use in an encounter, or as a reference for customization)?

Perhaps,

I suspect the impetus was to make the stat blocks more like 4e stat blocks (that's certainly what they read like to me) which WERE easier to understand and run. Certainly fits with the lets stick an ability or 2 into consistently used/useful and highlight it so DMs know how to run the NPC. But 5e is not 4e so there were some, likely unintended, consequences.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

In that warpriest statblock that's been floating around, there's one damage ability (comparable to and used alongside the melee attack) and one healing ability that hew to this new not-a-spell format. In addition to those, though, there's a spell list which contains flamestrike and hold person, among others.

So I'm wondering if the designers caught this issue in the time since Witchlight was published printed? Perhaps they've implemented a "compromise" for the upcoming monster book, where that "compromise" is (in this case) to make the warpriest easy to run from the statblock as a mostly "magical martial" NPC for DMs who want/need that, while also providing a handful of beefier combat (and healing) spells for GMs who want more options (either to use in an encounter, or as a reference for customization)?

While the NPC's have magical power that are in the actions section some of these powers have the keyword ranged or melee spell. So with the exception of counterspell or Globe of Invulnerability these would seem to could as spell for the mage slayer or paladin aura purposes.