D&D 5E Counterspell

[Staffan]

The ability for the players to willy nilly absolutely control Counterspell (i.e. they know the level of the spell being countered, and their low level version counters higher spell slot level spells) seems too much like an "I win" button and can lead to escalation like the NPC counterspelling the PC's counterspell.

I prefer at least some mystery and randomness in avoiding enemy spells. You cast Counterspell, you often roll an ability check with it.

A compromise would be to allow the caster to choose the slot for Counterspell after deciding on using it, but before the final results are determined. Something like this:

"The orc shaman starts casting a spell."
"I counterspell!"
"OK, he's casting chain lightning."
"The heck!? I don't have that kind of spell power, so I guess I'll settle for 3rd level slot and hope for the best."

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Sixth level spells must need an additional body part.

Better watch out when the wizard starts taking off his shoes ...

 

[Falling Icicle]

Many spells should have obvious effects as they are being cast that could help the players identify them. For example:
DM: "As the robed figure gestures, a fiery bead appears between his hands, increasing in size and brightness as he chants."
Player: "Look out! I think he's casting fireball!"

 

[thalmin]

Sometimes it's easy to tell. Like when the hobgoblin wizard pulls out the bit of fur and the amber rod. But difficult to tell if he has pulled out the gum arabic and an eyelash instead of the bit of sulfer and the bat guano. Very difficult if he is just flicking his magic wand (unless it is a flick and swish )

 

[KarinsDad]

A compromise would be to allow the caster to choose the slot for Counterspell after deciding on using it, but before the final results are determined. Something like this:

"The orc shaman starts casting a spell."
"I counterspell!"
"OK, he's casting chain lightning."
"The heck!? I don't have that kind of spell power, so I guess I'll settle for 3rd level slot and hope for the best."

This still has the potential for an "I win" button.

Player: "Chain Lightning. I put Counterspell into a 6th level slot. I win (shy of a counterspell of my counterspell)."

I prefer that the player take a chance. Or possibly an Arcana roll to determine spell level.

Counterspell is fairly overpowered as is since NPCs often only have a single copy of a given spell.


In 3E, the spell caster had to have the identical spell prepared in order to counterspell a given spell. It was quite a bit more difficult because even though counterspelling automatically worked, the caster trying to counterspell still had to Ready an action and make a spellcraft check to figure out which spell was being cast. So if he failed the check or did not have the properly prepared spell, his readied action was wasted.

Alternatively, he could use Dispel Magic, but that was similar to 5E Counterspell except that it was never automatic. 5E Counterspell has more utility than 3E Dispel Magic since the caster might be able to put it into a spell slot that results in an automatic counter. Granted, it does require an extra prep slot if still preparing Dispel Magic.


Btw, the counterspell of my counterspell concept is not guaranteed either. The first caster should not know which level slot the caster counterspelling his spell is using. He knows that it is a minimum of 3rd level, but that's all he knows. So, his counterspell may or may not be successful.

 

[KarinsDad]

Many spells should have obvious effects as they are being cast that could help the players identify them. For example:
DM: "As the robed figure gestures, a fiery bead appears between his hands, increasing in size and brightness as he chants."
Player: "Look out! I think he's casting fireball!"

If the fiery bead has appeared, he has already cast the instantaneous spell.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'd give them a reasonable chance of figuring out what the spell is, but they'd have to guess on what level slot it is in. Counterspell is a really good spell. I don't think it needs help being more effective.

 

[Li Shenron]

But, the player (or the PC) does not need to know this. The determination of high level slot for Counterspell just potentially automatically cancels the spell. Granted, the spell maybe should have been designed to increase the odds of canceling a spell with a higher level version of Counterspell as well, but the designers did not do that.

I meant the following:

- NPC casts Spell X of slot level Y
- PC casts Counterspell using a slot of level Z (min 3)
- if Z >= Y then Counterspell succeeds automatically
- if Z<Y then Counterspell needs a check

I see there are many ways to handle the situation. Multiple questions at hand:

Do you let the PC know which spell is X?
Do you let the PC know which slot is Y?

And for either question, do you let the PC know automatically or require a knowledge check?

Normally I would let the PC know the spell, unless it's one of those times when I want to be mysterious about a never-seen-before or unique spell.

Right now, I feel like I wouldn't mind to also tell the player what is the slot Y, so that she might choose a higher slot Z to improve her counterspelling chances. (When the spell is unknown, I'll just let her cast a Counterspell blindly, slot unknown too).

It's not a big deal to me to make counterspell this effective. It actually sounds quite fair, you are spending a slot to 'burn' an identical slot of your opponent. But I wouldn't mind if another DM wants to make this whole process more difficult to pull through, or more random by adding some knowledge checks.

The ability for the players to willy nilly absolutely control Counterspell (i.e. they know the level of the spell being countered, and their low level version counters higher spell slot level spells) seems too much like an "I win" button and can lead to escalation like the NPC counterspelling the PC's counterspell.

Counterspelling a counterspell is a separate issue.

I am not sure I would allow that. Probably there is nothing preventing it in the rules (if you can take a reaction while still busy in another action), but I would go with a simple "you can't cast a spell while you are still casting another spell".

 

[KarinsDad]

I meant the following:

- NPC casts Spell X of slot level Y
- PC casts Counterspell using a slot of level Z (min 3)
- if Z >= Y then Counterspell succeeds automatically
- if Z<Y then Counterspell needs a check

I see there are many ways to handle the situation. Multiple questions at hand:

Do you let the PC know which spell is X?
Do you let the PC know which slot is Y?

And for either question, do you let the PC know automatically or require a knowledge check?

Normally I would let the PC know the spell, unless it's one of those times when I want to be mysterious about a never-seen-before or unique spell.

Right now, I feel like I wouldn't mind to also tell the player what is the slot Y, so that she might choose a higher slot Z to improve her counterspelling chances. (When the spell is unknown, I'll just let her cast a Counterspell blindly, slot unknown too).

It's not a big deal to me to make counterspell this effective. It actually sounds quite fair, you are spending a slot to 'burn' an identical slot of your opponent. But I wouldn't mind if another DM wants to make this whole process more difficult to pull through, or more random by adding some knowledge checks.

Except that doing x to counter opponent's y is usually not guaranteed.

For example, PC 1 using the Help action to give PC 2 Advantage uses up an action, but unless the difference between PC 1's DPR and PC 2's DPR is great, the overall effect is typically less. If both PC 1 and 2 have a 60% chance to hit and PC 1 has DPR 8 and PC 2 has DPR 10, then PC 1 helping PC 2 means that PC 1's DPR goes to zero and PC 2's DPR goes to 14. On average, it was better to not use Help, but there are situations where it might work out better.


Now, I do understand this philosophy of letting the player know with certain either / or spells. For example, Shield. In reality, Shield could be played where the player does not know the total of the attacker's dice and Shield may or may not be helpful. But in the case of Counterspell, there is always the chance of the Counterspell being helpful, it's just a random chance. Unlike Shield, the player gets to roll to see if it works.


The real issue I have with making Counterspell extremely effective is that the NPCs (especially monsters) often have a single copy of a given spell. So if the player gets all of this information about what spell is being cast, then one player can more or less neutralize a significant portion of an entire encounter. Counterspell can be just that powerful.

As an example, a PC casts a spell at a flying dragon that prevents it from flying (e.g. Command spell Grovel). So, the Dragon casts Feather Fall as a reaction. Once the player who is contemplating casting Counterspell knows that the Dragon is casting Feather Fall, he knows a) that his Counterspell is 100% effective, and b) the Dragon is using a reaction to cast Feather Fall, hence, the Dragon cannot counter his counter. By knowing that the Dragon is casting Feather Fall, the player also knows (approximately) how much damage the Dragon will take from falling.

 

[sithramir]

Using a 3rd level slot is a big deal. Of it fails its pretty rough. You could just fireball, etc with that slot and do a ton. The counter is only stopping one spell from one NPC so if it ends the encounter, that encounter likely wasn't that hard being that casters die super easy in 5e.