D&D 5E Counterspell

[Pickles III]

Counterspelling a counterspell is a separate issue.

I am not sure I would allow that. Probably there is nothing preventing it in the rules (if you can take a reaction while still busy in another action), but I would go with a simple "you can't cast a spell while you are still casting another spell".

Out of interest what about a 3rd party doing it? It seems like packs of counterspelling characters could really change the game dynamics.

Also do they have to decide to counter a spell before they see the results of other counterspell attempts on the same spell? Probably best to avoid multiple characters with counter magic but I just know that one day I will sit down at an AL table with 2 abjurers.

I have no strong opinions on this whole counterspell thing yet I would need to see it all in play. I did use some NPC counterspellers who were there to frustrate & annoy the party as they are intended as long term antagonists.

We had a discussion about how to handle it & the players wanted to have a fairly open & explicit version, so the full details of the spell are announced when it is cast & you get your chance to counter it. I see this as the magical energies appearing & the counterspeller creating a magic ward in time - like spider man using a web to block a missile or movie wizard duels where they throw up defensive spells.

I do not know yet if this is the healthiest version. The rules are obviously silent on the subject & any number of ways of playing counter spelling seem reasonable.

 

[sithramir]

What I don't like is if the caster is casting a higher level spell (say 5th) and you counterspell with a 4th level slot there is no benefit to use 4th. Might as well use 3rd level slot unless you KNOW the spell level cast.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

It still seems to me that counterspell is such an upgrade from any similar magic that has come before that there is no need to help it out. A 3rd level slot gives you a chance to dispel any spell, and a higher level slot makes it automatic. I'll probably have to see how it goes in a longer term campaign though. If it ends up that none of my players are using it, I might give them free info before casting it.

 

[KarinsDad]

The counter is only stopping one spell from one NPC so if it ends the encounter, that encounter likely wasn't that hard being that casters die super easy in 5e.

Many monsters have very few spells since encounters are expected to only last 3 to 6 rounds, difficulty depending.

Dragons, for example, get Cha number of spells (if using the spell casting variant). An encounter with a Red Dragon where the dragon only has 4 spells and Fireball is one of them shifts the encounter into the PC's favor fairly quickly if the Dragon gets off its breathe weapon in round one, but in round two its backup Fireball spell fizzles.

 

[Scorpio616]

Well, what it comes down to is using Counterspell isn't free. If players do it often enough to block every Hostile spell that is being cast at them during the adventuring day, they'll be down to cantrips kinda fast. Now if the players realize their DM will let them rest whenever they want, sure Counterspelling a lot seems like an easy win, but if the players know their foes will pursue them when the party flees due to low resources, they won't be so willy nilly with their counters.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Many monsters have very few spells since encounters are expected to only last 3 to 6 rounds, difficulty depending.

Dragons, for example, get Cha number of spells (if using the spell casting variant). An encounter with a Red Dragon where the dragon only has 4 spells and Fireball is one of them shifts the encounter into the PC's favor fairly quickly if the Dragon gets off its breathe weapon in round one, but in round two its backup Fireball spell fizzles.

Since apparently getting 4 spells in exchange for nothing doesn't change the CR of the dragon at all, is it really reasonable to expect that successful use of 1 of them should shift the course of the encounter?

 

[KarinsDad]

Since apparently getting 4 spells in exchange for nothing doesn't change the CR of the dragon at all, is it really reasonable to expect that successful use of 1 of them should shift the course of the encounter?

Why would you think that the CR should not be slightly higher for a dragon with spells compared to one without?

Do the tougher Orcs not have a higher CR than the wimpier ones?

A simple Shield spell can increase the duration of a Dragon encounter by nearly a round.

By definition, a challenge rating indicates (on average) how challenging a given foe is. If you beef up the foe, shouldn't you beef up the CR?

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, what it comes down to is using Counterspell isn't free. If players do it often enough to block every Hostile spell that is being cast at them during the adventuring day, they'll be down to cantrips kinda fast. Now if the players realize their DM will let them rest whenever they want, sure Counterspelling a lot seems like an easy win, but if the players know their foes will pursue them when the party flees due to low resources, they won't be so willy nilly with their counters.

It might not be free, but it can be an extremely optimal tactic.

Auto-counterspelling a 3rd level Fireball spell that would have done 112 hit points of damage to a 5 PC party (2 saves, 3 fails on average) means 112 hit points that do not have to be healed. Even Prayer of Healing bumped into a 3rd level slot will only heal that 5 PC party about 85 hit points with some healing potentially dropped on the floor (2 PCs fully healed if they did not take other damage, 3 PCs with about 11 points of damage still). This does not even take into account action economy where it is easier to knock a PC that has taken 28 (or even 14) points of damage unconscious than it does to knock unconscious a PC that has taken 0 hit points of damage. Plus since healing in combat is relatively weak, a party that Counterspelled a Fireball tends to use up fewer other resources during the rest of the encounter (i.e. a hurt party will tend to blow through other spells in order to even the odds).


I also think that in many campaigns, there are very few hostile spells being thrown at PCs most days. Yes, if they encounter spell casters, this changes, but if they encounter monsters from the Monster Manual (which I suspect happens a lot at many tables), spells will be fewer and further between which makes Counterspell even more advantageous (advantageous in the sense that it works well when the PCs are able to use it, but the utility is low, so PCs do not burn through it often enough to get into the situation of being low on resources that you described). A very low percentage of monsters actually have spells. For example, a Stone Golem has a Slow ability which is not the Slow spell. Some DMs might allow it to be Counterspelled, but since it is not actually called out as a spell, other DMs will not.

 

[Li Shenron]

It still seems to me that counterspell is such an upgrade from any similar magic that has come before that there is no need to help it out. A 3rd level slot gives you a chance to dispel any spell, and a higher level slot makes it automatic. I'll probably have to see how it goes in a longer term campaign though. If it ends up that none of my players are using it, I might give them free info before casting it.

Yes it is an upgrade, but IMHO the starting point was very low. At least in 3e I have never bothered trying using it, too expensive tactically.

 

[Paraxis]

What if counterspell worked automatically against level 3 spells and lower like it does now, but when you use a higher level slot it doesn't automatically stop level X spell but instead gives a bonus to the roll. Maybe each level higher than 3rd gives the caster a +2 on the check, this way you don't need to know the level of the spell or what spell it is at all.