Counting the Cost: Encounter Power/Sneak Attack Synergy

[FireLance]

We don't know for sure yet, but let's assume the following to be true:

1. It will be possible for a rogue to gain access to fighter class powers, either through feats or through multiclassing.
2. There will be a weapon (probably two-handed) that deals 1d12 damage, like 3e's greataxe, that a rogue can gain proficiency and be able to sneak attack with, either through feats or through multiclassing.
3. There will be a 1st-level fighter encounter power, similar to the rogue's Torturous Strike and the paladin's Safeguard Smite that deals 2[W] + Str damage and can be used with that 1d12 weapon.
4. Without feats, a short sword is the weapon with the highest base damage that a rogue can sneak attack with, and its base damage is 1d6, as in 3e.

Assuming a low-level Brutal Scoundrel rogue with Str 14 and Dex 15, a successful Torturous Strike plus sneak attack would deal 2d6 [W] +2 [Dex] +2 [Str] (TS) +2d6 +2 [Str] (SA) = 4d6+6 damage. Avg 20, Max 30.

Assuming that he can somehow gain access to the fighter's 1st-level encounter power, and can combine it with a sneak attack and the above-mentioned 1d12 weapon, he would deal 2d12 [W] + 2 [Str] (EncPower) +2d6 +2 [Str] (SA) = 2d12+2d6+4 damage. Avg 24, Max 40.

What do you think would be a good cost for the rogue to get the 1d12 weapon and the fighter encounter power, and combine both with sneak attack to pull this off? One level of fighter and a feat? Fighter levels not necessary but two or three feats?

 

[neceros]

We don't necessarily know that we can even multiclass? It's never once been stated. We do know that you can take parts of a class, but that's it.

While speculation and theory are good for the mind, I suggest we wait to optimize once we can actually see the rules presented.




Or not. Whatever's the most fun.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

I think assumption #2 just makes the question irrelevant.

We know that in the basic sneak attack rules the weach choice on what you can sneak attack with is highly restricted.

Given that flavor restriction, I find it unlikely that they'll come out with a feat to break it.

 

[philippe willaume]

I think assumption #2 just makes the question irrelevant.

We know that in the basic sneak attack rules the weach choice on what you can sneak attack with is highly restricted.

Given that flavor restriction, I find it unlikely that they'll come out with a feat to break it.

that is from the rogue preview thigny

Sneak Attack
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases.

That being said may be there will be feat where you can grab the blade by the middle and keep the other on the hilt (like the historical half-swording) or shorten the grip on axe/spear/pole arms; use the tip as a dagger/shorts word
and the consider it is alight weapon doing 1d4 or 1d6 damage and with witch you can sneak attack.

 

[Cadfan]

What do you think would be a good cost for the rogue to get the 1d12 weapon and the fighter encounter power, and combine both with sneak attack to pull this off? One level of fighter and a feat? Fighter levels not necessary but two or three feats?

To be honest, I'd ask the player what he's trying to accomplish in terms of theme, and then try to rethink what would be necessary mechanically in order to make that theme work. By describing your goals in non-rules terminology, you can sometimes open up other options that you may not have realized.

You seem to be describing a character who borrows the following from a fighter:

-Big two handed axes
-Fighter attacks

and the following from a rogue:

-hitting better against foes who grant combat advantage

You may not even need to multiclass to obtain this, if there are Fighter powers which exploit enemies who grant combat advantage. You may be able to run a straight fighter.

I'd ask the player to make a list of what he wants in a character. Because then I'd have a better idea how to get it for him. Does he want the rogue's skills? Does he want the rogue's mobility powers? What is he looking for from the Rogue class other than the sneak attack? If he describes a fighter in plate who exploits vulnerable foes (which is why he mentioned sneak attack), I'd go after this differently than if he wanted sneak attack, skills, mobility powers, light armor, and the ability to hit really hard with a greataxe.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I want to backstab with an improvised ballista...

honestly: the sneak attack restriction to light blades is the best thing I have seen so far...

I sometimes ruled that only rogue weapons are appropriate for sneak attack in 3.x...
sneak attacking with a great axe is just stupid. Even with clubs, sneak attacking is weired. It doesn´t involve skill to hit someone with a club on the head if he is not aware of you... its rather some kind of coup de grace...

I hope though, that there are weapons, which can be used to subdue unaware enemies. A sap e.g. should come with its own sneak attack bonus, usable for everybody...

 

[tresson]

I want to backstab with an improvised ballista...

honestly: the sneak attack restriction to light blades is the best thing I have seen so far...

I sometimes ruled that only rogue weapons are appropriate for sneak attack in 3.x...
sneak attacking with a great axe is just stupid. Even with clubs, sneak attacking is weired. It doesn´t involve skill to hit someone with a club on the head if he is not aware of you... its rather some kind of coup de grace...

I hope though, that there are weapons, which can be used to subdue unaware enemies. A sap e.g. should come with its own sneak attack bonus, usable for everybody...

Well a Ballista is just a bigger version of a crossbow so I'd allow it

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Double post

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I agree with HP Dreadnought. I don't doubt that a rogue could get proficiency with a 1d12 weapon like a greataxe, but I highly suspect that the restriction on sneak attack and most rogue powers would prevent you from using them with the greataxe. I could see maybe a full one-handed weapon like a longsword or battleaxe being used with sneak attack, but a two-handed weapon is stretching it a bit. How do you sneakily attack someone with a weapon that large? I think sneak attack works better conceptually if it's with a light, fast weapon that you can stick them with quickly.

~LS