Coup de grace... A moral stand point...

[Henry]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de grace... A moral stand point...

I'm sure the authorities would have something to say about you killing a sleeping bandit that earlier in the day attacked you and killed your cohort. Especially when they find out you could have easily brought him into the authorities.

However, you should ask, "would these same authorities have said anything or even been suspicious, had the bandit been killed in the course of the robbery?" If I recall my midieval history correclty, the answer would likely have been, "no."

Keep in mind that anyone with status in a midieval timeframe could effectively kill without repercussion someone of lower status, especially outlaws. If the campaign was such that adventurers had some sort of special, deferential (sp?) status, then killing a common bandit with a coup de grace would likely not even raise an eyebrow from the local authorities, so long as it was reported afterwards. After all, European Knights (and I believe samurai, though not as clear on that one) had this power, and many used it without conscience. In theory, knights were romantic chivalrous figures. In real life, many were armed thugs (the murder of Thomas Beckett being an example) who had much power over those of lower social status.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

For Paladins, no, I don't think they would slay a helpless creature unless it were a fiend or other horrible monster. I feel adventurers think of monsters much like we think of a vicious animals in modern times. They are not viewed as creatures deserving of rights and respect. I think they view fiends as creatures that absolutely must be destroyed by any means possible when found.


For other characters, depends on how you have been playing your character. No honorable character would kill a helpless foe, but would kill a helpless monster. Monsters are not viewed in the same way as say a human or dwarf would be in my opinion.

 

[Dinkeldog]

"Many who live deserve death, and some who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends..." - Gandalf the Grey.

Nice Gandalf quote. Of course, Gandalf later slays masses of Orcs in Moria and Helm's Deep. Ah well.

The latter instances would be self-defense, while slaying Gollum would have been either an execution at best or a cold-blooded murder at worst.

Not that I would follow a hijack of a thread. Oh, no, not me.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de grace... A moral stand point...

Wow, is this how you play? You must be level 57 by now.

Well, I play by the rules, and that is the rule. It doesn't give tremendous amounts of XP. If the party faces the same enemy in several different stages, in a new fight each time, then I'm gonna give them XP for the battles they win, and forcing the enemy to retreat is a win. Try reading the PH and the DMG, you can learn a lot about the game that way.

 

[Shalewind]

No honorable character would kill a helpless foe, but would kill a helpless monster.

Many circumstances allow an honorable character to kill monsters. Particularly if battle is still going on. If the creature has a chance to be healed by friends, still has hp, and can kill another fellow party member...? Yes, even an honorable character is going run the thing through and continue with the fight.

Another situation: In dungeon crawling "YOU DO NOT LEAVE ENEMIES AT YOUR BACK". This is a simple rule. You kill foes in your way, especially if they are evil. Else, they will try and kill you when you try to come back.

Now yes. Having someone put a group of senteint creatures to sleep and then murdering them all (even if they are monsterous humanoids...) Well that depends on your DM. Are Orcs utterly EVIL? If so, I think Coup de Grace is in order.

 

[Rel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de grace... A moral stand point...

I suspect you wouldn't last too long in the medieval times if this were your stand point. I'm sure the authorities would have something to say about you killing a sleeping bandit that earlier in the day attacked you and killed your cohort. Especially when they find out you could have easily brought him into the authorities.

You speak as though the "authorities" and the paladin are two entirely seperate entities. In many campaigns, the role of the paladin is precisely to dispense justice to the evil doers of the world and do so in a fashion where no quarter is asked nor given. Justice and Chivalry are not always the same thing.

Therefore, when confronted with a helpless foe, the paladin can act as Judge ("Is that unconscious orc evil? Yep. I have the built in ability to tell."), Jury ("Is there evidence that he has tried to do evil? Well, he did attack us from ambush without provocation, so yes.") and Executioner ("May god have mercy on your soul." *Whack*).

Obviously other DM's may handle things differently, but I don't care to saddle the paladin with a moral dilemma after EVERY combat. There are plenty of other ways to pose a moral dilemma to a paladin.

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de grace... A moral stand point...

"Jill: I eat the stormtrooper!
Me: Wha?...
Jill: And then I poop him out!"- Originally posted by Dr. Midnight

Say what???

Hahaha . . . That's funny as anything I've ever read . . . I love it . . .

Where'd it come from?

 

[Shalewind]

Therefore, when confronted with a helpless foe, the paladin can act as Judge ("Is that unconscious orc evil? Yep. I have the built in ability to tell."), Jury ("Is there evidence that he has tried to do evil? Well, he did attack us from ambush without provocation, so yes.") and Executioner ("May god have mercy on your soul." *Whack*).

Excellent Summary of the Paladin's role. I agree completely.

Sorry for the partial highjack...

Paladins should never have a moral problem in cases with killing evil. They can SENSE evil. IRL we can't thus, we must have a more complicated judicial system. If you buy into the whole alignment thing, then you have to buy the paladin's ability to find and exterminate evil.

 

[Rel]

Say what???

Hahaha . . . That's funny as anything I've ever read . . . I love it . . .

Where'd it come from?

You should check out Dr. Midnight's Star Wars Story Hour. Trust me, it is worth reading.

 

[Victim]

I think it's kind of pointless to coup de grace enemies in the first place, unless A) someone's going to heal them or whatever, and B) you're fighting to wear down enemy forces - like killing the henchman then going after his boss.

Otherwise, it doesn't matter. The DM can put as many foes in as he wants - it doesn't matter if they're new ones or old ones. Personally, I think it's more dramatic to have a repeat villain, as you develop a relationship and invest something in his defeat.

If you want to discourage Coup de Grace's just show that there's no advantage to it.