Coup de Grace broken?

[RigaMortus2]

There is not a single RULE in the core rulebooks that restrict you to acting according to your alignment. Thus it is in no way a deterent.

Alignments ARE in the Core Rules book, and they have very clear and concise definitions of each. If the DM wants to be strict on what PCs are allowed to do with regards to their alignment, and the PCs wish to not change their alignments, then this is a valid deterent. Of course, this isn't a deterent in every campaign world. The way you play alignments and how strict you are with your players with regards to them might be different than mine or Tom McCafferty's.

 

[Storm Raven]

Alignments ARE in the Core Rules book, and they have very clear and concise definitions of each.

Of course, your version of alignments seems to be significantly at variance from the definitions given in the core rules, which makes your clinging to them as a core rule somewhat odd.

 

[Sejs]

*stands at the airport holding a cardboard sign that has Tom McCafferty written on it in black magic marker*

*waits*

 

[Tom McCafferty]

Having had the time to sleep on it I can see the majority is right, however I think you should be able to save on a natural 20.

I miss played the encounter in a different number of ways. I made it too easy for the PCs to get into the camp, there should have been trip wires and bells around it. I should have split up the two invisible PC and questioned them individually about what they would be doing. It is a hard thing to coordinate their attacks and movement in the camp. I don't know why I let you get away without a save for the guards noticing the silence spell. The save for that would have been quite easy, as the noise of the burning fire, their breathing and the snoring of the giants would have all stopped.

The rules seem to indicate that CDG is a full round action that cannot be used in the surprise round, but must continue into the next round to be completed as part of your next action. So you would have to beat the victim on initiative to be able to complete the CDG. This brings about the question what to do about that situation.

 

[JoeBlank]

Kudos to you, Tom. Live and learn, and improve your game. That is the great thing about EN World. So many people here are willing to help others have a more enjoyable gaming experience.

Wish I had something advice-wise to add. I am still not sure you are comprehending the full-round action, as you describe in your last paragraph. Initiative should not come into play.

I like the idea of some sort of chance to wake up from total silence. Brings back memories of my dad falling asleep on the couch in the afternoon watching a baseball game. He could be snoring away, but if anyone turned that television off he would wake up immediately, and say "I was watching that."

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wish I had something advice-wise to add. I am still not sure you are comprehending the full-round action, as you describe in your last paragraph. Initiative should not come into play.

In fact, it does...

In the surprise round, the halflings get a partial action; the giants get none, as they are surprised.

The halflings use the Start Full Round Action Partial Action to begin a Coup de Grace, which they can complete with a standard action next round. However, having a halfling begin sawing at his throat will obviously wake a giant.

So initiative determines whether the giant, in the first round, acts before the halfling - in which case he may be able to do something to prevent the completion of the CDG - or after the halfling, in which case he might be dead.

Which makes me wonder - since he's awake, even though he's flat-footed, he's no longer helpless, and therefore ineligible for a CDG anyway...

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Which makes me wonder - since he's awake, even though he's flat-footed, he's no longer helpless, and therefore ineligible for a CDG anyway...

Hence my suggestion that the rules be stretched in this specific case. The timeconsuming part of a CDG, I think, is in lining up the shot, but the giants aren't going to wake up because the shot is being lined up: they'll only wake up when the spear goes through their throat.

I'd allow the CdG in the surprise round. At worst, I'd let everyone else automatically go first in the first normal round of combat. But I think it'd be silly to rule that you can't kill someone in their sleep because they'll wake up halfway through your killing them, at which point they can't be killed.

The only way I can think of to have this happen completely within the rules, and possibly the best solution, is to start combat a round early. For the surprise round, the assassins sneak up to the giants, the giants sleep, the ogres and hounds do nothing. In the first round of combat, the assassins spear their targets, the giants die, the ogres and hounds spring to their feet and launch the attack.

Daniel

 

[Christian]

Having had the time to sleep on it I can see the majority is right, however I think you should be able to save on a natural 20.

This is probably the most common house rule in the natural universe. The authors of the core rulebooks have even stated that the failure to include this rule there was an oversight ... Any saving throw should succeed on a natural 20. (I'd personally go even farther-even using the optional '20=30' rule that makes an attack roll of 20 possibly still a miss, I'd still let a natural 20 saving throw automatically succeed. But anyway ...) I'll give good odds to anyone who wants to bet against me that this won't be in the revised PHB.

 

[Shalewind]

This is probably the most common house rule in the natural universe. The authors of the core rulebooks have even stated that the failure to include this rule there was an oversight ... Any saving throw should succeed on a natural 20.

I agree completly.

And thanks for posting back Tom. It shows a lot about the character of a person when the can stand against the flow. I hope you give your PCs a nasty surprise next time. Here's good luck to ya!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Maybe its just a house rule since AD&D but killing the helpless automatically as I recal has always been in the game. Heck I don't think they were ever given a save. Now I'm going to have to pull out my old books.