Coup de grace useless beyond Heroric Tier?

[Markn]

So my campaign is at 15th level. Coup de grace lets monsters do a crit with a standard action on helpless people. If you do damage equal to their bloodied value, they die.

On 15th level, I have 3 guys breaking the 100hp barrier. One at 125, one at 115 and 1 at 105. The other 3 are between 80 and 95.

Looking at the damage values of most monsters at this tier, coup de grace is ineffective for MOST monsters at this level.

As you get higher levels, it will become impossible except in rare circumstances.

Is that the intent of coup de grace - to only be useful at heroic tier and less so as you move up or is it bad design?

 

[aurance]

I wouldn't say it's useless. It's still an auto-crit.

Yes, the auto-death part becomes less useful at higher tiers, but I don't consider that a bad thing.

 

[The Little Raven]

Is that the intent of coup de grace - to only be useful at heroic tier and less so as you move up or is it bad design?

Level 15 rogue, +3 duelist's rapier, Backstabber feat, Weapon Focus feat, 22 Dexterity would deal a minimum of 62 damage on a coup de grace using an encounter or daily power (24 from weapon, 24 from sneak, 6 from Dex, 3 from enhancement, 2 from weapon focus, 3 minimum from the 3d8 critical hit bonus).

All your players, except Mr 125 HP, would die from a minimum damage coup de grace from this rogue. And he's more likely to do at least 63 damage, which would kill Mr 125 HP.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Level 15 rogue, +3 duelist's rapier, Backstabber feat, Weapon Focus feat, 22 Dexterity would deal a minimum of 62 damage on a coup de grace using an encounter or daily power (24 from weapon, 24 from sneak, 6 from Dex, 3 from enhancement, 2 from weapon focus, 3 minimum from the 3d8 critical hit bonus).

All your players, except Mr 125 HP, would die from a minimum damage coup de grace from this rogue. And he's more likely to do at least 63 damage, which would kill Mr 125 HP.

PCs have less HP than most monsters of a similar level, in part becase of their HP. So, comparing PC damage to another PC's HP unless the group are turning on each other.

Then again, unless the monsters can knock the party unconcious normally, or attack the PCs while they are sleeping, the chance to coup de grace will be when the PCs are dying ... in which case they are already below 0HP. While you may not achieve the desired effect of a coup de grace, you don't need to do bloodied damage, only get them to negative bloodied (which will probably be less, and can involve multiple attacks, etc).

Ultimately though ... while 1-shot KO's are possible, generally, it's just going to be an auto-crit on an easy to hit target which is still very good. The rule of coup de grace is more to allow PCs to kill monsters, not to help the monsters kill off the PCs.

 

[eriktheguy]

Of course an auto-crit is a great bonus on its own, especially at high level. Keep in mind also that a major advantage of the Coup de gras is that you KNOW you are going to get a critical before you choose the attack you use. You can select a high powered daily to ensure its maximum effectiveness, bringing the fight off to a devastating start.
Other than that, I agree with you. The bloodied-auto-kill rule is far less plausible at high levels.

 

[bonus]

Why do you want to kill your PCs?

 

[Markn]

Why do you want to kill your PCs?

Uh....because that is what cunning, intelligent BBEG do? I'm not out to kill them, but if the bad guy would do that, I will do it.

We are about to hit 16th level. 1 death at 2nd level. We have many healers in our group and an endless amount of ways to trigger surges. Fights are far from lethal.

Besides, the question is more about whether coup de grace is designed properly or not.


Other posters have rightlfully pointed out that an auto crit can still be a good thing, but I will point out it has little value once a heal is applied since the healed person goes to 0 before gaining HPs. In fact it completely invalidates that action and makes it worthless if it does not kill the PC.

Again, I find monsters to be underwhelming and wasting an action that doesn't have some real benefit just isn't worth it which further devalues coup de grace in my mind.

PS - Comparing PC damage to PC HP's is not the goal here. PCs can and will do more damage than monsters on a regular basis. In fact several of my PCs can do more damage with at-wills at 15th level than Demogorgon can do at 34th level with most of his attacks.

 

[Flipguarder]

Is coup-de-grace useless if you want to kill the pcs in one round? No
Is coup-de-grace useless if you want to kill the pcs faster than you would otherwise? yes

It's design is not to kill pcs in one round, it is designed to put a large amount of penalty on leaving enemies with a dying ally. I believe it is useful in this area.

 

[Markn]

Is coup-de-grace useless if you want to kill the pcs in one round? No
Is coup-de-grace useless if you want to kill the pcs faster than you would otherwise? yes

It's design is not to kill pcs in one round, it is designed to put a large amount of penalty on leaving enemies with a dying ally. I believe it is useful in this area.

How so? A ranged heal that grants 30 HPs of healing on a PC at -2 HP or at -50 HP ends up with the same total +30HP. There is no penalty that I can see.

 

[Flipguarder]

Penalty: dying quicker.