Coup de grace useless beyond Heroric Tier?

[frankthedm]

CDG in 4e is a joke. If a ruleset does not want characters to be killed in one blow, then abilities to make a target helpless should be rare to nonexistent. The rules shouldn't require multiple rounds to saw through someone's neck with a blade just so the Sleep spell is balanced for first level use.

 

[Markn]

CDG in 4e is a joke. If a ruleset does not want characters to be killed in one blow, then abilities to make a target helpless should be rare to nonexistent. The rules shouldn't require multiple rounds to saw through someone's neck with a blade just so the Sleep spell is balanced for first level use.

Amen, brother!

I think the reality however, is that the damage scaling that monsters have is too low. I have done some quick comparisons at 1st level and 15th level. A monster on 1st level using an at will power averages about 8 points of damage. This equates about 25-29% of HPs that PCs have. Monsters on 15th level average about 15 damage with an at will power. Conversely, this equates to about 12.5% to 22% (for the wizard in my group). I think the damage scaling is the problem which then bleeds into CDG effectively being non functional. Does anyone know if a thread exists that talks about the the math of monsters damage and can they point me to it? If not, anyone care to start up a thread and do the math?

 

[Orcus Porkus]

the observation is correct. Monster damage oftentimes seems too low, particularly the crit damage. Most monsters don't deal any extra crit damage, they only maximize the regular damage. At the same time, most PC's at higher levels have insane extra powers and damage on crits.
I've observed it quite often that players simply laugh off critical hits at higher levels, and just don't give a damn. I think we have a serious rule problem here.

 

[eriktheguy]

So 3/4 HP and +1/2 lvl damage for monsters and we're set?

 

[Nebten]

Level 15 rogue, +3 duelist's rapier, Backstabber feat, Weapon Focus feat, 22 Dexterity would deal a minimum of 62 damage on a coup de grace using an encounter or daily power (24 from weapon, 24 from sneak, 6 from Dex, 3 from enhancement, 2 from weapon focus, 3 minimum from the 3d8 critical hit bonus).

Its nit-picking, but you don't auto-max sneak damage. But your point is well made, sir. (p. 117 & 278 PHB)

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Its nit-picking, but you don't auto-max sneak damage. But your point is well made, sir. (p. 117 & 278 PHB)

Actually

10. Which dice do I maximize when scoring a critical hit?

Only the dice you would normally roll to calculate damage are maximized. If another bonus (like from a weapon or feat) causes you to roll extra damage dice when scoring a critical hit, those dice are rolled as normal.

Extra Damage: Magic weapons and implements, as well as high crit weapons, can increase the damage you deal when you score a critical hit. If this extra damage is a die roll, it’s not automatically maximum damage; you add the result of the roll.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Its nit-picking, but you don't auto-max sneak damage. But your point is well made, sir. (p. 117 & 278 PHB)

Actually, that's not the case. What you don't max is any extra damage granted you by the crit (such as the extra damage from magical weapons). But any damage you would have ruled anyway--including sneak attack and quarry--is maxed. (This has been confirmed by CS, for whatever that's worth. )

Edit: Ninjaed!

 

[Markn]

So 3/4 HP and +1/2 lvl damage for monsters and we're set?

Actually, our group plays this way, and even then it just delays the the CDG problem by a few more levels. I'd estimate that by level 20 at the most and CDG under that play is almost non existent again.

 

[Nebten]

"Sneak attack: Once per round, when yhou have combat advantage against an enemy and hit that enemy with an attack that uses a cross bow, a light blade, or a sling, the attack deals extra damage."

"Hunter's Quarry: If you can make multiple attacks in a round, you decide which attack to apply the extra damage to after all the attacks are rolled."

"Warlock's Curse: If you hit a cursed enemy with an attack, you deal extra damage."


That was my take, but in the end it doesn't matter. I like maxing everything anyways.

 

[Soel]

Monsters' crit damage simply needs to be upped. I'd start with maxing it at heroic, doubling it at paragon, and perhaps 3x at epic. I have noticed some monsters from MM2 having a fixed bonus crit damage, but its only a few select creatures.

Unless you allow monsters to use magical weapons/implements, they don't get the bonus crit damage that players will have so I think doubling or tripling the damage goes pretty well towards fixing that.