Coup de Grace

[frankthedm]

The whole excitement for me is executed as soon as players start CdG'ed everything that has been paralyzed by some effect. I don't want to see CdG in combat anymore, period.

I had hoped there would have been precious few ways to render some helpless in combat in 4E. Instead, they are still there, but CDG itself was nerfed.

 

[Lacyon]

Heroically saving someone who is about to be executed isn't quite as exciting when the executioner can't do anything worse than max damage with a weapon.

He's been doing max damage for the past 3 rounds (when he was sharpening his axe, checking the ropes, and lining up his headshot).

Better get the rescue off before he gets his turn on round 4.

EDIT: What I mean here is that CdG in the "classic" sense of slitting someone's throat or whatever can easily be visualized as taking several rounds of getting into position and lining up your shot. In game terms, start doing your Max Damage every round once the opponent is helpless, and you actually make the killing blow on the round when your opponent's hp reaches zero.

This is roughly equivalent to "outside of combat, you can just slit their throat," because outside of combat you don't need to track rounds and durations - if the target was a threat or there was a chance they'd wake up before death, go into combat rounds and use the CdG rules.

Minions can still be CdG'd in combat, because they die when hit anyway. Other creatures and characters can be CdG'd relative to their overall toughness and plot importance.

There's no real need, IMO, for any death effect that bypasses hp.

 

[WyzardWhately]

There is no speculation here. This has been confirmed at the DDXP. Attacking a helpless defender just gets you max damage.

Yes. This happed at D&DXP, at Mike Mearls's table. The solo Black dragon fell asleep and all the party delivered CDGs, heavily damageing, but NOT killing the dragon.

I was really addressing this as a theoretical question for people who want to have CdG outside of combat, but not inside of combat. I mean, we have at least some data on how the rules DO work, but I'm curious as to the fixes people might propose to bring it more in-line with their vision.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Coup de Grace is probably a pretty good rule. However, it is a rule that is explicitly designed to explain something that can happen in real life in the context of an abstract combat system.

I would suggest that in most cases, a DM is not going to have much trouble simply declaring a helpless opponent dead, especially in cases where the NPC is not particularly plot relevant. The only time this matters is in situations where the opponent who is about to be pining for the fjords is one that the DM would consider plot relevant, or when the DM is in a position to use the rule on the players. All a character needs to be a near perfect assassin is the ability to cast Silence, Invisibility, and a means of inflicting 30 damage on a melee attack. Given that, I could coup de grace all the players.

However, 4th edition is trying very hard to remove Save or Die situations. With Coup de Grace, a Sleep spell is essentially save or die. The reasoning for the 'max damage only' rule makes sense in that context.

I would suggest that an optimal solution is the following: In all cases where the death of the victim is meaningless to the plot, use the 3rd edition rule, or something similar. If the death of the victim will either destroy the dramatic purpose of the encounter (big bad guy got nailed by a bad save / great attack roll), or cause the players to be revolt, use the max damage rule.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[MicahWedemeyer]

Only allow CdG on NPCs. Then, only allow it in non-combat situations: sneaking in to slit throats, executioner and the chopping block, etc.

Just house-rule it so if they actually succeed at getting to the target in such a non-combat situation, they automatically succeed.

Once initiative is rolled, no CdG allowed.

Bottom line: CdG against PC is teh sux. CdG against NPCs should be used when appropriate for the atmosphere. Otherwise, handle it with basic combat rules.

Don't be afraid the house-rule the heck out of things!

 

[Stalker0]

Only allow CdG on NPCs. Then, only allow it in non-combat situations: sneaking in to slit throats, executioner and the chopping block, etc.

Just house-rule it so if they actually succeed at getting to the target in such a non-combat situation, they automatically succeed.

Once initiative is rolled, no CdG allowed.

Bottom line: CdG against PC is teh sux. CdG against NPCs should be used when appropriate for the atmosphere. Otherwise, handle it with basic combat rules.

Don't be afraid the house-rule the heck out of things!

Why not, 4e already assume PCs sometimes break the rules, so they could just have a "you can't CDG pcs" rule.

 

[PeelSeel2]

Play it as it makes sense. Even if it is a plot relevant NPC and the PC's have done a good enough job to put him/her in a help situation, he/she is dead.

If you want to put the players in the same situation (which I have before), I spell out specifically what will happen if they do A, B, or C.

I wanted a couple of characters captured to advance the plot of the campaign, and they put themselves in a position (which they could have got out of before hand) where city guards surrounded them and put swords to their throats. So I said "If you decide to go to initiative, the guard with the sword point to your throat gets to act. You have to make a saving throw versus Fortitude or die. If you survive, it is double max damage, then initiative." Heavy handed? Absolutely. Not RAW? Absolutely. Did it make sense for situation and plot? Absolutely. Was it fun for players? Absolutely. Things like this will be easier in 4e, especially if you do not mind throwing no save or die out window. That ability is now an encounter power, usable once per day for that specific creature.

I do like the "dying" mechanic in 4e alot. As a DM, you can use it for a lot of things, and add ALOT of tension to death by drawing it and adding some hope.