coup-de-grace

[Caliban]

Mostly the former.

It comes down to when things that are not weapons are considered weapons. Reasonable folks disagree on this, and the rules don't make it clear - you have to read around in several places and even then there is doubt.

Example:

If you have improved unarmed attack, are you attacking with a weapon or not? Well, certainly you are for some purposes - but if you disarm someone you'd get their weapon, wouldn't you? That's because you are attacking unarmed. So apparently you are attacking wihth a weapon for some purposes and not for others. What about a Coup de Grace? Do you have a weapon or not? Well, sort of you do and sort of you don't.

I think I'll add Improved Unarmed Attack to the list, too.

I think you get the idea - it's debatable. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just that there are two sides to the question.

I think you are getting way to hung up on semantics.

If it does damage to them and requires an attack roll, it it can crit, then it's a weapon. Period.

A Coup De Grace is striking them in their most vulnerable areas when they are completely defenseless. If you can critical with it, then you can strike their vulnerable areas, therefore you can Coup De Grace with it.

A unarmed strike is a natural weapon, and yes you can Coup De Grace with it, whether you have Improved Unarmed Strike or not.

Whether or not you can end up with someone elses weapon when you disarm them is completely irrelevant.

 

[Artoomis]

I think you are getting way to hung up on semantics.

If it does damage to them and requires an attack roll, it it can crit, then it's a weapon. Period.

A Coup De Grace is striking them in their most vulnerable areas when they are completely defenseless. If you can critical with it, then you can strike their vulnerable areas, therefore you can Coup De Grace with it.

A unarmed strike is a natural weapon, and yes you can Coup De Grace with it, whether you have Improved Unarmed Strike or not.

Whether or not you can end up with someone elses weapon when you disarm them is completely irrelevant.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, I'm only pointing out another view exists and it has its basis in the rules. I didn't point out everything, but it is unclear in the rules exactly when unarmed attacks and touch attacks are considered as weapons and when they are not.

That's all.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

Ok, I'll get this out of the way first. Caliban, I completely agree with you. In order for a critical to be possible, the attack must deal damage and require an attack roll.

I accept those as the requirements for threatening a crit, but where in the books does it say that the attack must deal damage? I know it must be somewhere, I just don't know where. I can see a few places where it implies it, and a few where it assumes it, but nowhere that it states it.

 

[Caliban]

Ok, I'll get this out of the way first. Caliban, I completely agree with you. In order for a critical to be possible, the attack must deal damage and require an attack roll.

I accept those as the requirements for threatening a crit, but where in the books does it say that the attack must deal damage? I know it must be somewhere, I just don't know where. I can see a few places where it implies it, and a few where it assumes it, but nowhere that it states it.

I'm not sure what you are asking here.

The attack must deal damage for what purpose?

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, in order for an attack to gain the benefits of a critical hit/ sneak attack/ coup de grace the attack must meet the following criteria:

1) the attack must deal damage, reductions don't apply (ie. Ray of Enfeeblement)

2) attack must require an attack roll

What I don't know, is where #1 is stated in the rule books. I can't find any place that explicitly states that dealing damage is required in order to perform a critical hit.

The closest that I can find is where it mentions that only damage is multiplied on a crit.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head where it would matter, is if a multi Ranger/Sorceror had the Favored Enemy Critical Strike feat and cast "Bull's Strength" on an ally that was also a favored enemy.

I could see it being funny to pull on a player, but I'm really curious as to whether or not the spell has to deal damage in order to critical.

 

[Caliban]

Unless I'm sorely mistaken, in order for an attack to gain the benefits of a critical hit/ sneak attack/ coup de grace the attack must meet the following criteria:

1) the attack must deal damage, reductions don't apply (ie. Ray of Enfeeblement)

2) attack must require an attack roll

What I don't know, is where #1 is stated in the rule books. I can't find any place that explicitly states that dealing damage is required in order to perform a critical hit.

The closest that I can find is where it mentions that only damage is multiplied on a crit.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head where it would matter, is if a multi Ranger/Sorceror had the Favored Enemy Critical Strike feat and cast "Bull's Strength" on an ally that was also a favored enemy.

I could see it being funny to pull on a player, but I'm really curious as to whether or not the spell has to deal damage in order to critical.

PHB, page 123, Critical Hits, and PHB, page 277, Critical Hit (crit).

Only damage is increased on a critical hit. No other effects of the attack are increased (unless specified for that effect, as with a burst weapon).

 

[kreynolds]

Aroooga!...Aroooga!...OK fellas. Once again, here is part of the coup de gras description.

A combatant can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. A combatant can also use a bow or crossbow, provided the combatant is adjacent to the target.

Now, where in there does anybody see "you can use a weapon-like spell"? Nobody sees it? Strange. OK, where in there do you see "you can use a banana"? Don't see that either? I wonder why? Maybe because...you aren't supposed too?

Reading too much into the rules guys. I will, however, agree that a touch attack spell that delivers DAMAGE (i.e. not ability damage or some funky fandangled death attack spell) qualifies for a mode of attack to deliver a coup de gras. It makes sense. Say you cast Hold Person on your victim, they fail thier save. Now, the next round you cast shocking grasp and hold the charge. Now, NEXT round (because a coup de gras is a full-round action unless you have the Death Blow feat) you automatically hit and score a crit. Why? Because you used a melee touch attack. Now that sucker takes 2x (double to be more precise) the amount of damage from Shocking Grasp.

And let me finish up this post with one question. Why on earth would you want to use Cure Light Wounds or Entangle or Grease for a Coup de Gras anyway!?!

I'm done.

 

[whatisitgoodfor]

By KReynolds:

Why on earth would you want to use Cure Light Wounds

Possibly so you can get 2d8 + 2* caster level in healing from a first level spell.


Caliban: The question I am trying to ask, is whether or not effects that trigger on a critical hit can be activated by spells that don't deal damage.

(Its kind of like the debate we had before concerning a Flaming Burst Scythe vs. an undead.)

 

[Caliban]

Aroooga!...Aroooga!...OK fellas. Once again, here is part of the coup de gras description.

A combatant can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. A combatant can also use a bow or crossbow, provided the combatant is adjacent to the target.

Now, where in there does anybody see "you can use a weapon-like spell"? Nobody sees it? Strange. OK, where in there do you see "you can use a banana"? Don't see that either? I wonder why? Maybe because...you aren't supposed too?

Or maybe because a weapon-like touch spell is a melee weapon and therefore doesn't need to be mentioned specifically. They don't give a list of the different melee weapons that can be used, because any melee weapon can do it.

And let me finish up this post with one question. Why on earth would you want to use Cure Light Wounds or Entangle or Grease for a Coup de Gras anyway!?!

I'm done.

Some people want to claim that they can critical with a CLW and heal twice as much.

 

[kreynolds]

Possibly so you can get 2d8 + 2* caster level in healing from a first level spell.

Geesh...and here I though the idea behind a coup de gras was too kill somebody. Well...my mistake.