coup-de-grace

[Mark]

Although kreynolds already stated it, I will restate it so it won't get lost:

Your cleric can CDG with an Inflict spell, but not in the same round that he casts it. He could theoretically cast the spell and "hold the charge" a couple rounds if he knows he's getting into combat. In this case, he still would need to be within five feet of the victim to perform a CDG in a single round.

Of course, there's always haste. Adding that in would make the combo pretty deadly, although at a very high cost of spells. Using this many spells per opponent is likely to leave one high and dry later in the day.

Hmm. Thinking on it, I suggest potions of Haste and a wand of Inflict Light Wounds. If you don't have to have the Cleric deliver the CDG, a wand of Chill Touch would work nicely. You can get several attacks from one casting of Chill Touch.

Yeah but the cheaper you try to get away with it, the lower the DC for the Fort save against death by the CdG. Heck, you could Inflict Minor Wounds but that only requires a Will Save (against the spell), followed by a Fort save (or die) at DC 11. I'd be careful not to let that get too low, lest you only foil the Hold and piss off the target. I'd want to be sure to put a good chunk of hurt on a creature just in case the saves don't go in my favor. Let's face it, with two saves and losing a spell slot(s) {or item charge(s)}, at some point it is more effective to club them, have only the Fort save, and take advantage of their helplessness to give them the old CdG.

 

['o Skoteinos]

Critting without damage dealing spells

Caliban, take a look at the section in T&B about sneak attacking and criticals. It mentions that Enervation (1d4 negative levels) can crit (for 2d4 negative levels). What happens if I CDG with a Enervation? Does the target make a save vs. 10 + number negative levels, or does the target make a save vs 10 + (number of negative levels) * 5 (you lose 5 HP for each negative level)?

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Critting without damage dealing spells

Caliban, take a look at the section in T&B about sneak attacking and criticals. It mentions that Enervation (1d4 negative levels) can crit (for 2d4 negative levels). What happens if I CDG with a Enervation? Does the target make a save vs. 10 + number negative levels, or does the target make a save vs 10 + (number of negative levels) * 5 (you lose 5 HP for each negative level)?

Enervation does deal damage. For every 1 negatitive level you gain you lose 5 hit points. So, if you deal the target 8 negative levels, he loses 40 hit points. Ouch.

 

[Nish]

Re: Re: Critting without damage dealing spells

Enervation does deal damage. For every 1 negatitive level you gain you lose 5 hit points. So, if you deal the target 8 negative levels, he loses 40 hit points. Ouch.

That's also debateable. Read the description in the PH. It does not specifically mention the 5HP loss, so many people will argue that it is not an effect of the spell.

Also, negative levels don't cause damage. They reduce your HPs, which is different.

 

['o Skoteinos]

Nish: that's *not* debatable: look in the PHB, page 280, "Negative Level". It says you lose 5 HP, and it's in the PHB. And, according to the Enervation spell describtion, you gain 1d4 negative levels.

The only that can be debated is wheter 2d4*5 HP loss is the same as damage...and that's what I was asking Caliban...

 

[CRGreathouse]

Was that added in the 2nd printing?

 

[kreynolds]

No. It's in the first printing. Of course, we must be lying since nobody knew that, right? Give me a frickin' break. Ok. You got me. Insider information that only me and 'o Skoteinos knew about. Yep. WotC came to us and told use the secret. C'mon people!

 

[Nish]

Nish: that's *not* debatable: look in the PHB, page 280, "Negative Level". It says you lose 5 HP, and it's in the PHB. And, according to the Enervation spell describtion, you gain 1d4 negative levels.

The only that can be debated is wheter 2d4*5 HP loss is the same as damage...and that's what I was asking Caliban...

Well, mine doesn't have anything about a hitpoint loss in the spell description (2nd printing even). And apparently most other PH don't as well, because in another thread, IIRC, no one else saw anything about it in the spell description either.

I noticed you're not from around these parts, 'o Skoteinos, do you have maybe a non-english language version of the PH or something that is more up to date than the second printing?

I've also checked the PH errata and DnD FAQ, they make no mention of this issue.

Frankly, I'd love to accept the fact that Enervation does the normal hp reduction, especially since my necromancer just hit 7th level, but I just need to see conclusive proof. The fact that your version of the PH appears to state it directly gives me hope.

 

[kreynolds]

Nish: The PHB explains negative levels before the spell section. So, you're already supposed to know how negative levels work! Why would they bother printing it twice in the same book. Well, since they didn't specifically mention the hit point loss in enervation, or anything else for that matter, I think it's save to assume that "negative level" in regards to enervation means "ICE CREAM SANDWICH"? Give it a rest.

 

[Nish]

Nish: The PHB explains negative levels before the spell section. So, you're already supposed to know how negative levels work! Why would they bother printing it twice in the same book. Well, since they didn't specifically mention the hit point loss in enervation, or anything else for that matter, I think it's save to assume that "negative level" in regards to enervation means "ICE CREAM SANDWICH"? Give it a rest.

But they do mention everything else. Except for the hp loss.

Negative levels are described in the PH. Negative levels are again described in the Enervation spell description. The problem is that the descriptions are inconsistent. While I agree that the spell was probably intended to cause the hp loss, many people at one point interpreted the fact that the spell description specifically lists the effects of the spell, seperate from the definition of negative levels, omiting any reference to hp loss as the spell not resulting in hp loss. There is afterall a precedent for the negative levels inflicted by Enervation being different from negative levels inflicted by anything else; that being the reduced duration of the negative levels.

Unless someone can show/quote an official source stating that negative levels inflicted by Enervation are completely identical to all other forms of energy drain except for the reduced duration, then the issue is still uncertain and open to debate.